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#1134 - Friday, July 12, 2002, Editor: John Metzger

To Have... or Not to Have
Fewer of us have kids today, but debates about childlessness still touch a nerve.
http://www.utne.com/bBody.tmpl?command=search&db=dArticle.db&eqheadlinedata=To%20Have%20or%20Not%20to%20Have

Nina and freyjartist

Hello Nina :))
That is what i noticed as well...that everyone seemed so emotional.
I was saying to myself, hey, everyone, lighten up a little.
N.
Yes, when there is a disproportionate amount of reactive energy, I
wonder about its origins.
f.
It is interesting how Kheyala refrained from
getting into the fray and elegantly exited so that she could
continue to do her thing where there is no contention about it.
She could have stayed and duked it out, fought for a cause,
furthered the drama, but she demonstrated that all she really
wants to do is to share in her own way with those who are open to
it and embrace it. Or so it is perceived here.
N.
I have a choice here. I can decide to stop using Kheyala as a poster
child for what she represents to me. (And, for that matter, stop
using Gene as a poster child for what he represents to me.) What do I
do about this? It is so easy to keep using her person instead of
trying to understand why what she represents to me is so powerful.

That said, I wish Kheyala, the person, had not exited. (Who is to say
that she has at all? <s>) Perhaps it is a good thing that the drama
was not furthered, but why does it need to be seen as drama? What if
it were simply one person posting, another person responding to the
post, and that first person or perhaps another responding to the
response, the responses gradually building understanding? Ah, but
maybe rupture can be seen as part of building understanding, too.

What is the essence of conversation, anyway? (This is a real question
to myself.)

I find that when I feel attacked, for whatever reason, I lose the
ability to be available for conversation. Sometimes it just takes a
deep breath to return to enough stasis to see through my gut
clenching resistance to hearing my most honest voice and hearing the
real message behind what was spoken to me. I have to clear away my
bad feelings before I can get back into the groove. That takes time,
and sometimes it looks and acts really ugly.

The fact is that, despite all the wigglings around 'disidentification
with the body' (be it flesh or something more subtle), in this
moment, in my perspective, this body (my flesh, my thoughts, my
feelings, my...) does exist, if nothing else than as a vehicle, and
it is something I have to take into consideration. I try to give
others that leeway, too.

Which brings me to this question of 'how to communicate'. Do I throw
out what issues forth from me, hoping that there will be someone out
there who 'gets it'? Or is there some way of feeling out my audience,
and reaching out to them with how I write what I write? I know there
is a lot of interesting tension that plays between those
two "extremes", and somewhere in the middle there could just be a
moment of saying "yea! what they said!"

I am beginning to wonder if perhaps it is much much more difficult to
observe/see/whatever HOW one communicates than it is to
observe/see/whatever WHAT one communicates. And when the issue is
HOW, and all anyone can see is WHAT, then what happens?
f.
Gene Poole is the moderator and he can do as he pleases,
i am in no place to judge him. He always made a lot of sense to
me, that is why i was a little surprised this time. But, hey, life
is full of surprises, init?

I prefer to take it as an opportunity for exploration...
f.
However, i agree 100% with Melody (i think) who said something about
allowing the list its own self-regulating intelligence.

I cannot see anywhere where the Kheyala posts were doing any harm
whatsoever.
N.
I can see one place.

I want to hear the perspective of "Ananda".

I also want to know why it is acceptable for "Ananda" to remain
voiceless except for the voice given her by her mother.

(I do not wish for the above to be personal, I hope that we can begin
to find other words to represent the things that Kheyala and Ananda
are representing.)

In combination with what Gene is pointing to with the questions about
how a body/bodies communicate with(in) themselves (the
diploid/haploid piece), here is some of what is forming my concern:

I have memories of events that happened as early as 1-1/2 years of
age in my life. They were not formed by photographs, influenced by
conversations with adults or manipulated out of me during therapy.
Most all of these extremely early memories are of times when no
adults were around. I am eating dog biscuits with my dog and am
surprised when other kids didn't want any. With another toddler, I am
dragging a "giant" damp doll across wet grass to deposit it in the
carriage swing of the swingset. The thought patterns are different.
The motivations are different. The decision making process is so
clear! I recall exact moments of saying to myself "I can't do this
anymore, it is not beneficial for me." I know these memories to
be "mine", and yet, they are memories that belong to "a different
person". Who was this person, who have I become, and how?
f.
And by making a big deal about it...it really did get a life of its
own. It has been made more enticing. It's like when you tell your
kid something like watching a certain show is verboten--well,
naturally that show becomes more enticing and the child's interest
about it climbs. Which is fine. But it would seem to me that this
matter could have been approached differently.
N.
I am choosing to see that the issue at hand is not verboten, rather,
there has been a call to look at it more deeply.

Why am I thinking of a conversation with a friend about worker-owned
businesses? Because worker-owners must somehow get out of the notion
that they can be "not responsible for" the outcome of their jointly-
owned business. They have to get out of the mindset that "someone
else will do it." In order to succeed as a group, each individual
must constantly say "I have to do that right now." That's really,
really hard in a world where things are about "rights" and
not "responsibilities"... and where people are so used to just
sneaking by at work for others... doing the "half-assed job".

I guess what I am saying is that not being responsible for what I am
posting is what is verboten. I have no right to post. I only have the
responsibility in posting.

So, then I can ask myself: for whatever gift I have that I want to
share, and for whatever talent I have for sharing, how can I take
responsibility for it?
f.
Did it seem as the Adventures were taking over the list somehow?
Did Gene look at it as some kind of contagious virus to be
contained before it spreads and infects everything around it?
Maybe he sees something i don't (sincerely). Perhaps unseen friends
are orchestrating matters for reasons we are not privy to.
N.
Perhaps all of the above. My sense is that it doesn't matter. :)
f.
As to the real meat of it for anyone else, i dont know, i have no
idea. You are right, it's probably not really about Khelaya and
the style/content of her posts. Perhaps all it is is that a good
shit-kicking drama is needed once in a while!

But i wont create more concepts about why, for
it is not really possible to get oneself out of one concept
(illusion) from within another concept. Unless, of course, the
concepts will be used for digging only, and then tossed.
N.
Yes, we are in agreement. This is the digging stage. Everything we do
on this list is the digging stage. When I am not digging, I am not
posting.

On that note, enjoy your weekend. :)

Thanks for the message..

John Duff
Center of Friends

Gill Eardley spiritual-friends

Concentration
From: http://www.utah.edu/stc/tai-chi/stories.html

A young and rather boastful champion challenged a Zen master who
was renowned for his skill as an archer. The young man demonstrated
remarkable technical proficiency when he hit a distant bull's eye on his
first try, and then split that arrow with his second shot. "There," he said
to the old man, "see if you can match that!" Undisturbed, the master did
not draw his bow, but rather motioned for the young archer to follow
him up the mountain. Curious about the old fellow's intentions, the
champion followed him high into the mountain until they reached a deep
chasm spanned by a rather flimsy and shaky log. Calmly stepping out onto
the middle of the unsteady and certainly perilous bridge, the old master
picked a far away tree as a target, drew his bow, and fired a clean, direct
hit. "Now it is your turn," he said as he gracefully stepped back onto the
safe ground. Staring with terror into the seemingly bottomless and
beckoning abyss, the young man could not force himself to step out onto
the log, no less shoot at a target. "You have much skill with your bow," the
master said, sensing his challenger's predicament, "but you have little skill
with the mind that lets loose the shot."

Be Kind With Yourself
The key to spiritual practice is not in following instructions, but in acting with warm-hearted intention.

By Shunryu Suzuki

Excerpted from "Not Always So: Practicing the True Spirit of Zen." Copyright 2002 by San Francisco Zen Center. All rights reserved. Reprinted with permission from HarperCollins.

<http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?storyID=10720&boardID=41195&pageLoc=/story/107/story_10720_1.html

excerpt
A Buddhist Drunk

By William Alexander

From "Cool Water: Alcoholism, Mindfulness, and
Ordinary Recovery," copyright 1997 by William
Alexander. Reprinted by arrangement with
Shambhala Publications, Inc., Boston.

http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?pageLoc=/story/22/story_2201_1.html&boardID=2555

sandeep yearning

http://www.thegreatillusion.com/index.html (link may no longer be working.)

Dave Mason livejournal

(extract from)....The Shoes of Wandering
by Galway Kinnell

On this road
on which I do not know how to ask for
bread
on which I do not know how to ask for water,
this path
inventing itself
through jungles of burnt flesh, ground of ground
bones, crossing itself
and the odour of blood, and stumbling on,
I long for the mantle
of the great wanderers, who lighted
their steps by the lamp
of pure hunger and pure thirst,
and whichever way they lurched was the way.



The Wanderer Ludwig Angerer

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