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#1147 Friday, July 26, 2002
__________________________________________________________________________

NINA

Are enlightened people those who have broken through to
something different?

or

Could it be they are the most conditioned of all?

GENE POOLE

Perhaps the 'enlightened' have broken through

to see their own conditioning;

That is different

And a breakthrough

At the same time...

JAN BARENDRECHT

It depends on the emotional and belief issues that have
been left behind. This indicates the possibility of
variance and seeming contradiction. Apart from that, the
subsequent speed of dissolution of these issues left
behind can be zero or within a lifetime, which further
increases the observed difference.

Consider thinking to have been "saved/helped" by an
"enlightened master" heading a cult(like organization).
Wouldn't such an event to a high degree set the scene
for opinions and behavior? In mammalian behavior,
imitation is a major feat. In the spiritual scene that
is called "lineage".

NINA

I was thinking about a situation in which one becomes
intent on 'doing what is required' (for
'enlightenment'), modifying behavior to
'survive/thrive' in that direction. Creating a whole new
set of rules governing response and self-defense (or
lack thereof).

JAN

Thanks for mentioning this issue. Repeatedly there's the
case of a householder wishing to leave for the woods in
order to meditate. Giving in to such desire could be a
lifelong conditioning, dissolving it means the
realization that you aren't the mortal frame while
engaged "in the line of duty". Then consider the case
when living a solitary, easy going life without any
moral obligations. For such a one, not willing to change
that in favor of a more challenging meditative life is
the same lifelong conditioning. There is just this rule:
for all creatures, death is certain.

The defending issue is clear, it doesn't differ from the
one in politics and soccer. That already indicates the
issue could have been incorporated into teachings, and
in some it has, the summary, a teacher has no need for
defense.

...belief translates into action causing experiences
which reinforce the belief. Once fully aware of that and
"silence", you are "the island no flood can overwhelm".

A good laugh could be this quote from the Buddha: "Happy
is seclusion to him who is contented, to him who has
heard the truth, and to him who sees. Happy is goodwill
in this world, and so is restraint towards all beings.
Happy in this world is non-attachment, the passing
beyond of sense-desires. The suppression of the 'I am'
conceit is indeed the highest happiness."

GARY MERRILL

Yes is there a 'self' outside of conditioning?

Being enlightened or not may be the conditioning itself,
the process of becoming, the conditioning. 'We' are
conditioned to abstract our identity, but this is still
the movement of conditioning.

The so called 'enlightened' and so called
'unenlightened' are the same in that both imagine their
selves to be outside and independent.

The division of self into conditioned/unconditioned and
un-enlightened/enlightened being the ignorance of
identity.

_________________________________________________________________________

VIORICA

Hello Everyone ...

Two days ago the sweet She-God asked : "What is the size
of a dinosaur ? That of a building or that of a tower
?"

"It could have been your size too ", says her father.

"Or your size , or her size , or ..." , she goes on and
on ..," or his size ...",..

Decided not to ever miss God's words , I've been
meditating on dinosaurs' sizes,

Love
God devotee

NINA

God devotee, Viorica, that's marvel-ous. It smiled me.

Here's another one for you, one of my personal favorites
when it comes to mind-blows. Look at birds. Pigeons.
Grackles. Sparrows. Bluejays. Robins. Finches. The
oft-repeated scene that really cinches it is the
cluster of crows on the road digging apart the roadkill,
hopping angrily away with mouths open when the cars
come.

Dinosaurs never left us.

__________________________________________________________________________

HEIDI

Mark Twain:
http://essayists.8m.com/whatisman.html

"I told you that there are none but temporary
Truth-Seekers; that a permanent one is a human
impossibility; that as soon as the Seeker finds what he
is thoroughly convinced is the Truth, he seeks no
further, but gives the rest of his days to hunting junk
to patch it and caulk it and prop it with, and make it
weather-proof and keep it from caving in on him. Hence
the Presbyterian remains a Presbyterian, the Mohammedan
a Mohammedan, the Spiritualist a Spiritualist, the
Democrat a Democrat, the Republican a Republican, the
Monarchist a Monarchist; and if a humble, earnest, and
sincere Seeker after Truth should find it in the
proposition that the moon is made of green cheese
nothing could ever budge him from that position; for he
is nothing but an automatic machine, and must obey the
laws of his construction."

And then...

"Having found the Truth; perceiving that beyond question
man has but one moving impulse - the contenting of his
own spirit - and is merely a machine and entitled to no
personal merit for anything he does, it is not humanly
possible for me to seek further. The rest of my days
will be spent in patching and painting and puttying and
caulking my priceless possession and in looking the
other way when an imploring argument or a damaging fact
approaches."

_________________________________________________________________________

JP

Hi folks
My name is JP - 41 year old unenlightened man from
Toronto.

I have deeply appreciated NDS - have met wonderful
people through it. Have been a quiet voyeur - safe
within my finely spun Timothy Leary described cocoon.

The brief discussion about "enlightenment" as a
non-mystical, naturally explainable event is
intriguing.

We may be familiar with some of the accounts of humans
who seemingly transcend the association with their own
"suffering, seeking self". Who then go on to view their
experience and altered state of consciousness as
evidence of a self/other defined state of
enlightenment.

They feel at peace. They are witnesses, at one with a
neutral, vast Consciosuness. They feel dispassionately
detached from their body-mind.

In many of these personal accounts - there is often
mention of a profoundly disturbing - often prolonged -
period of personal crisis immediately preceding the
described breakthrough in awareness.

Intense depression, anxiety, confusion, desperation,
suicidal ideation were experienced. There may have been
years of spiritual seeking, reading of many books,
attempts at various therapies, going from guru to guru
or from belief system to belief system. Much
introspection took place. They may have engaged in
raging inner battles with incongruent belief systems and
ideas. Stuck in an unsolvable koan of their own making.

Insights were previously gained - what can be labeled
awakenings. They witnessed the goings on of their minds
- and the herd-like consciousness of the tribe. They
may even have inquired into their own nature – and
deconstructed themselves to the point of concluding
that they have no lasting, permanent self. Insights
were gained conceptually and experientially. And yet -
the suffering continued.

Then - suddenly - there came an experience in which all
of the turmoil and chaos were seemingly "dropped" or
transcended.

The seeking ceased.

Every one having such an experience describes it in
her/his own way, in the context of their own life.

A state of "disassociation" took place - in which one
feels s/he is a disconnected, neutral "witness" to
one's thoughts, personality and activity. One may feel
that the personality has ceased to exist. One may feel
a sense of implosion. Or a sense of infinite
expansiveness.

There may be a sense of profound rest, peace, love and
happiness. There is immense relief - laughter or tears
of joy - and a sense of intimate connection with the
vastness of all life. There is disassociation from
suffering - and intimate association with what they
feel is the vastness of Consciousness Itself. The sense
of the "present moment" may be intense. There may be
joy in silence. Many other experiences are described.

Questions:

We know that during physical trauma - where bodily pain
is intense - the brain/body can bypass the perception
of pain – completely remove the pain from conscious
awareness - and bring on a state of euphoria or
tranquility.

A type of anesthesia from suffering can take place - a
way in which the brain/mind/body saves itself –
protects itself - from insurmountable pain.

Can the same thing happen when a human being is faced
with an intensely anguished existential suffering?

Can a type of anesthesia from mental suffering occur?
Can the brain/mind bypass its own neurological pathways
– its own entrenched pathways of
memory/sensation/meaning that form a continuous loop of
intense consciously experienced pain?

Can this experience of transcending or bypassing pain –
feeling liberated from existential anguish - then be
believed by the one experiencing it to be a state of
enlightenment?

When a human being is confronted with overwhelming
existential suffering - extreme mental pain and anguish
- is there a natural faculty in the brain/mind that
causes a break from the unbearable experience of
mental/neurological pain – a break from a state of
suffering - into a state of transcendant calm?

We know that in the face of intense mental/emotional
pain and stress – there can also be a break into what
is described as madness and chaos.

A human being can experience a "psychotic break" or
paralyzing depression – and be plunged into an altered,
anguished state of consciousness.

Is there another break – not from overwhelming stress
into psychosis or acute depression – but from
overwhelming stress and suffering into a perceived
sense of transcendence from suffering?

Is the escape and disassociation from suffering really a
state of enlightenment?

Or is it the organism protecting itself through a
neurally induced anesthesia?

Or does a person break with the suffering by accessing a
"supernatural" non-localized quantum Universal
Mind/Consciousness? A Consciousness that interpenetrates
the biological neural firings of the suffering brain? A
Consciousness that interfaces with the brain?

Any thoughts and explorations are most welcome and
appreciated.

JP
_________________________________________________________________________

DANA HOFORD

"All that stands between you
and the immediate, perfect realization
of the truth of being
is everything whatsoever
you are doing
to attain this realization."
- John Sherman

---
Beloved, we are One
http://www.satsang.nu

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Nonduality: The Varieties of Expression



Photography & Writings by Jerry Katz

HOME


All 5000+ pages on Nonduality.com may be accessed here and here.

SPONSORS


ONE, by Jerry Katz

Photography by Jerry Katz

Dr. Robert Puff

THE NATURAL BLISS OF BEING

       

Rupert Spira

DISSOLVED, Tarun Sardana

HIGH JUMP, Tarun Sardana


Greg Goode -
After Awareness: The End of the Path