Jerry Katz
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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #159

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New moon day.


Interesting websites found by PETROS



To Greg Goode's web page on Nondualism and Western
Philosophers has been added a section of William James, with
excellent links.

Says Greg in the introduction to the web page:

"Many of our most stubborn and cherished dualities are the
product of Western philosophy! In using the Western
method, we are employing a medication that comes from the
same part of the world as the disease. We don't have to
the doctor's entire kit bag, just the particular pill for
our problem. For example, here is how Western philosophers
can help with
some of the more intransigent Western dualities. This list
is certainly not exhaustive!"

I know that Western philosophy isn't as sexy as Eastern, and
I don't hear the current batch of Satsang Givers getting
into Wittgenstein (unless that's the name of their manager)
or Heidegger or Brand Blanshard or those sorts. Let's face
it, it doesn't sell as easily as the Eastern stuff. However
there is much nonduality in these teachings and it is
important and, I feel, overlooked. Here's the link:


...I agree that avoiding the "I" word can address the conditioning
aspect of the belief in an independent I. That is only surface-level.
The I-sense is deeper than the I-word. The I-sense is a conglomeration
of beliefs, feelings and bodily sensations, and seems to be something
inherent and solid. This is too entrenched to be addressed by language
alone. But after it is deeply known and intuited that there is no such
thing as an inherent or independent I, then there's the freedom to use
the word or not, to not have to avoid it. Then, the dictates of common
sense and good style may become relevant - e.g., "don't use the I-word
too much," and "don't turn our language into pretzel-like contortions so
as to avoid it." And it might even be the case that one would find
one's self using it less than average in a teaching or mentoring
context, so as to not encourage the linguistic level of the I-belief in
others. This is what Krishnamurti did.


Also, maybe this is why prophets would not say "I" am telling you this,
but "G-D is saying this". This is a tricky thing to me. Because if
someone is genuinely speaking from "no-mind," this kind of language is
appropriate, but if they're not, their use of the third person becomes a
kind of deviousness, a self-deception. One thing I've noticed is that
some politicians, and often boxers will speak of themselves in the third
person. Like when Lennox Lewis says "Lennox Lewis will knock out Evander
Holeyfield whent they meet next." It has the sound of a significance
beyond the normal saying of "I will knock out Evander Holeyfield." And
when Krishnamurti says, "the speaker," that draws attention to him
speaking from "another place." So, for me, there is a lot to look at
here. The so-called Lucknow Disease represents taking the speaking for
the thing itself, in my opinion. It becomes a reification of the
presence of G-D. This reification of a linguistic mode for a reality
also takes place with channelling, in my opinion.

There's a kind of grandiosity in referring to oneself in the third
person. It's as if the person were in some disembodied place where they
can be the absolute observer and they are noticing the significance of
this particular body or speaker. If someone is clear on awareness being
nonlocal, they are free to say "the speaker", to say "G-D is adressing
you," or to use the "I" word. "I" simply becomes a way of saying "here,
now", a localizing of the nonlocal. Saying "G-D is addressing you" does
the same thing from the other direction. I'll just say for now, "I
thank you for your insightful commentary," and leave you to judge the
source of the statement.


I agree on all this. Actually, in the original post, I was referring to
a teacher who polices others' use of language. (He also spent time in
Lucknow.) And his own avoidance of I-me-mine and insistence on using
the locution "this form" or the 3rd person actually draw more attention
to his language than to his message. I've heard others teachers who met
him speak of him as a "3rd person guru." He doesn't use Krishnamurti's
compassonate and skillful avoidance, nor is it part of his sadhana;
rather it comes across as a show-offy kind of thing.

And there's even a distinction between "this form" and "the speaker."
The former is what is called an indexical phrase, and its truth depends
on who says it. "This form is wearing white." True if X says it,
false if Y says it, so functions very much like "I", thereby still
individuating the "I". But Krishnamurti's more skillful locution "the
speaker" is NOT indexical. "The speaker is wearing white" has the same
truth value no matter who in the room says it, much more democratic.

Some reactions to a bit of trouble;


"I am not evil"

No, Tim, you're not.

You wear a dark mask somedays.

And you say and do some dark things.

And some people believe that 'it' is you.

But it's not. Not even close.

Looking behind the mask,
I see your gentle heart.

Too soft, maybe...
isn't that so?

So delicate that for years and years
it lays hidden inside its 'cover'

.....Like coal protects the diamond
from the element.

Until one day, the dark cover is cracked open.
And the radiance and clarity within

will shine for all the world to see.

But until that time, what a mess that
lump of coal can make in ones hands!

Loving you, and looking foward to your return.



Some masks require only love and spiritual noursihment to crack. Other
masks require a sledgehammer:) In the end, opening up the mask is the
task (and decision) of the mask-wearer. In the meantime - criminal
behavior of any sort is unacceptable. Like a good parent - I can
disapprove of the behavior while having Compassion for the child.

Compassion does not mean bad behavior is totally free of consequences
however. Tibetan call this concept Idiot Compassion. As any parent knows
there WILL be Natural Consequences to bad behavior. Otherwise - all the
child learns is that he can be a bully and wreak havoc and hurt other
beings whenever he damn well feels like. Any parent who ignores bad
behavior is a bad parent. They are enabling and encouraging the child to
be a sadistic bully. Proper reflecting back to the child - regarding
their actions - is one function of an adequate parent.

Bad behavior (criminal activity etc) should NEVER be simply excused. As
in'"oh that's ok. I guess you had a bad day" - or whatever.

Tim - here's hoping you can get your act together. If this list IS a
personality contest - it appears that you lose this round.


I hear your passion. And I read with
empathy the story you shared.

As one who has was raised in a culture
of abuse (which in today's climate would
surely mean imprisonment for more than one)
I wanted for many years to see my abusers
punished...or at the very least....I wanted
to see them suffer. So please do not "imagine"
that I *excuse* behaviour that harms another you suggested.

As I see it though, compassion is not something that can be 'learned'.

One doesn't *acquire* compassion.

Once interpersonal desires, expectations, fears
have been dropped, compassion simply IS.

It's what remains when "I" drop away.

The question is then "how does one become free of the preoccupation with
the stature of self, and feel
compassion for another?"

The answer I found in my own journey is simply

It's not a sexy answer. Certainly not a popular
answer. It definitely won't get me
elected to any public office. :-)

But inside Love, Compassion flows.

Yes, I hold the vision that Tim and all those
who instill fear into the heart of another (even
if it's fear of losing the 'illusionary' reputation
as Tim may say ) ... will one day see the deepest
heart of those he would seemingly defend himself
from .... or retaliate against.

But first one needs to discover their own 'diamond'.

Once that is done, there is no longer any fear.
The fear and the anger and the hatred fades away.

I believe I understand your anger, your outrage,
and your sorrow. But since for me 'love' is the
answer to all the injustices, crimes, and sorrows
we endure.... that is the heart of my message to
Tim, and to you.



...We are all involved. Whether we like it or not. Not making a
decision - IS making a decision.

May all beings be released from suffering and the causes of sufferings
May all beings know happiness and the causes of happiness
May all beings achieve enlightenment and not be departed from it


...And since, in a sense, we are all reflecting each other and partaking
of the collective (un)consciousness in individual but somewhat similar
ways, his failure to accept responsibility and look into his stuff is
all our failure.


I don't know. Everyone has their own path, own stuff to work through.
The 'group mind' thing can be carried too far -


as i read your supportive letters and those of my no
nonsense goddess in shining armor, Xena, i'm beginning to
realize we might be able to salvage something precious from
this event.

I was blessed for 15 years with the companionship of an
angel in form of a toy poodle. Everybody used to marvel at
the unprejudiced love and joy she offered to everyone she
met. She was truly the most amazing little dog. I called her
True. When i first bought her home as a puppy i held her on
my shoulder like a baby so she could see her new world
through the car window, but, why i asked my driver, does she
keeps hiding her head in my neck and won't look! "Its too
big and too fast out there for her yet" and i've never
forgotten that simple reply.

As a result I am always alert to the possibility that i can
misinterpret the function of the nondual perspective and use
it as an escape to hide in.

Our reality is the result of a most precise balance of
forces and although we share the same natural events our
conscious minds react to them in a very personalized manner.
In other realities different cohesive forces create their
precise balance. Here we have only begun to dimly sense that
our imaginative projections, emotions and obsessions have
been having a profound effect on our world and have strained
that exquisite balance, not only in our own personal world
but the mass reality. Yet many of us have already run for a
himalayan cave, the deep silent self, anything but *LOOK* at
EVERYTHING, NAKED AND face up to the responsibilities of

I came to these eucalyptus mountains to keep perspective.
Not to escape. When i'm feeling confused or upset as a
result of misinterpreting basic sense and psychological
data i only have to turn my attention to this natural world
here and meditate on the profound effect it has on me
regardless of those prejudiced projections that i have
allowed to organize my world. Papaji used to go into the
jungle alone for hours each morning, (there are very few of
those jungles left in India nowadays). Krishnamurti
recommended returning to nature at every opportunity not
just when the going gets tough. Like a tuning fork its
re-harmonizing effects
are beyond words.

Tim has hacked open many a door for us here at the NDS and
at great cost. Each time what i see is a panoramic vista of
vast possibilities for growth and communication which were
being ignored because they are almost more than this
intelligence can bare to look at. But i will not keep
running from them.

Please rejoin us tim in this marvelous adventure. I will
never forgive you, i promise for there is nothing to forgive
because *nothing ever happened when you return to
deep boundless love*.

Xena (diana) your bravery was wonderful, your name is true
to your
nature. You made a direct entry with a sharp chopper, I feel
very safe with you here. Thank you.


There's a little book called The Door of Everything.
I've been drawn back to it several times over the years.
Now it appears again to me.

"Your Light of Life will go to work throughout your personal temple,
welling up as the fires of purification and you will be washed clean of
all errors and all negatives, as soon as you are willing."

"The great and glorious center of your heart will burst wide open, as if
struck by a lightning flash and you will become the vibration of Love, a
vibration so exalted above the love of human emotion that the languages
of earth do not contain words vivid enough to make the comparison."

This is a little book opening big windows.
author: Ruby Nelson
publisher: DeVorss & Co.


...To attend this breathing into form with deepest reverence.


...The list has changed since last spring, and I have.
For me the last few months have been a time of accelerated growth
nourished by the flow to and from the list, and the best part is having
no idea what comes next. I am attending the breathing into form of
myself too. And the blossoming of all here. The voices which begin
hesitantly, then sing with increasing sureness. The individuals who move
into and out of attention. The dance.


I have no intention of remaining aware of issues
but sometimes it happens anyway.

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