Jerry Katz
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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #189

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Larry wrote:
Thanks Andrew for your response. If I
may ask, how did your realization
come about, or how did your ego fall
away, or how would you put it? Did
you just wake up one day and that was
it or did you have to nurture it?
Was it primarily intellectual? Did you
have to go off to the woods and
be by yourself? What about the other
part of your life--family, friends,
work etc.? Were their seeming demands a threat to "peaceful awake"?

I guess that"s enough questions for now.

I don't call it anything, I got to a point where I just had to give up.
I gave up faith and the need for any kind of absolute reality and just
let things be. I stopped trying to figure things out. A point came
where there was no hope and no fear as Trungpa might have said. (I live
in Nova Scotia, and the 'Shambalans' have become a major force in the
spiritual and cultural life of this community, when Chogyam Trungpa
moved here in the 70's he helped bring Halifax out of the dark ages.)
It's really nothing special, just a basic understanding. But it was only
after I had stubbornly searched and thought and intellectualised myself
to exhaustion.

I love solitude in nature, but I could get by without it.

Relationships with people push me to awareness, not away, being really
present now with the people I love and in the world of the senses is
what it's all about.

From new member BOB MAURER:

Anything that is communicated in words has to do with concepts.
But the difference lies in this: when you formulate your
conceptions (or use those of another that you have adopted) you know that they
refer to something that is beyond concepts, but when you read someone else's
formulation you do not.
Simple yet insidious.

By Carlos DWA:

It was after one in the morning when the Salock, Tuppa Kae Loc hadShasha Togg
get those of us that he could reach together. I think half
of us where drunk or high. Fortunately I had been spending a rather
uneventful evening working on hybridization schemes for my Amurs.
Nobody had lit a fire in the hearth and it didn't seem like anybody
was inclined to. We where all standing around silently enduring the cold,
restlessly huddled in our cloaks and greatcoats when the Salock entered
and regarded the lot of us with a look that defies description.
As if we had forced him to be here at this ungodly hour
instead of the opposite. He strode to the center of the hall and
started right in -for all the world giving the impression that we
had interrupted something important and he was anxious to get
back to it.
He said, "How comforting it is to believe there is a program,
a tradition, a method, a technique... that there is a way that has been tread
before. That there are official conformations. And of course there are, but
there are none such to what I am indicating, nor can there be.
Yet there is an organic potential and I will not say that it is not there
-full blown -natural, and alien to all your concepts about such.
How comforting to think there is someone who can lead you there. But I tell
you -that if there was someone who could by their own power -propel you into
what I speak of. They would be doing you an incredible disservice and injury.
They would be crippling you for all time.
You think there are conclusions to come to -psychological factors -insights.
There are...-endless conclusions -endless psychological self referential
infinite regression -all futile as regards This Movement. Every understanding,
every conclusion is another bar in your prison. You can think you got a step
up by coming to this conclusion itself, but you have gotten no where. This has
nothing to do with psychological revelations -psychological revelations are
irrelevant. "False self", "false "I"", "self", "ego", "subconscious" -If you
achieve an enriched functioning, an enhanced consciousness, if you attain Ka
(*rymes with awe) you will never waste your time on this nonsense again.
Then what will you do -if all your problems and impediments evaporate?
Will you delve back into their cozy dim comfort?
Will you slit your throat?
Or will you move forward as an explorer in new territory -new neural
territory. Yes, the "mechanism" (a "mechanism" more conscious and alive than
you are) that opened, that affords you this enriched functioning is embedded
in your genome. But no one has been where you will be. There is no one to run
to for comfort or conformation. You will either love the vistas of
consciousness -of unexpected inconceivable possibilities -or you will try to
run home to mama by talking about it.
Then you will be "safe" once more, back in the arms of futility -fast asleep,
and trying to teach others how to awaken. But then your awakening is only a
memory. Your possibilities are ended and you can only lead the sleeping deeper
into slumber.

All your great spiritual heroes where nobodies as regards This Movement. The
real greats are far too covetous of their time to become widely known. How
would the sleeping masses recognize an awakened person? By their feelings
around them? All they will find is a spiritual politician -someone genetically
dominant -a daddy. By miracles? By believing in external miracles you miss the
possibility and realm of real possible miracles. When you reach a point that
you wouldn't cross the street to see Jesus, or Buddha, or Mohammed, or anyone
-unless you wanted to borrow a tea bag, then you are at a point where you can
actually do yourself and others some real good. What I am saying here does not
indicate "facts" or "Truths" or conclusions. It indicates energy flows
-vectors. The words are irrelevant nonsense. See what is behind them. If you
can -disregard the speaker and the hearer. Derive what nourishment they may
hold and spit them out and forget them." And he turned and hurried from the
room. And it was a really strange vacuum he left behind him.
It was charged with -I don't know what.
We all just stood there in silence for a time and then one by one without a
word to each other we left, making our way through the snows to our respective


from ASHWIN, another new voice, responding to Tim's post:

I can only come to one conclusion:That the body is an delusion, that it
does not really exist. If the body were real, then from a nondual standpoint
when it died it would logically have to disappear from view.

the conclusion is based on the I expecting some thing to happen (disapperance
of body....too many cartoon films there...). The life force and the I-am which
had associated with a body has stopped its association, the delusion which
has stopped
is I-am-the-body. Once the dream is over there is no me, nobody. But how can
one experience that when one is still a part of the dream. Instead of asking
others in this dream to believe in nonduality by pervesere use of logic,
the logic can be used to just point the way back. If one acknowledges the
body and the mind when
one is conscious and if the same consciousness comes and goes (doesn't take
the body
with it) Then that which acknowledges the body-mind is not the body or mind.
So what is that which acknowledges the body mind (dead or alive)?

Ashwin concludes:
A conversation in duality has to use duality it is not possible to
avoid it. Hence the use of duality by Tim to explain nonduality is Ok. But
the whole explanations stands on the assumption-If nonduality is a fact then
the body is a delusion.
Another way of putting this phenomenon occured to me
and I would like to share it. If I am dreaming then the whole dreamworld
appears to me,
for the duration of the
dream, life in this dreamworld goes on. Actors live and die, their bodies drop
decay and if I don't like them disappear. Many characters play there part,
I get chased or fall in love or sometime fall of a cliff...But all of a
I am awake and the dreamworld disappears...I am awake and I know it is a
I am not expecting the dream to go on.. it is not as if I have logged off the
dreamworld. It is gone finito end more over I know it never was, but it
felt so real.
Nonduality is I and duality is dreaming (a concept). Yes that is the
concept of
nonduality. Having liked the dream experiences the Same I craves for the
and dreams again. This is the lily of the play divine.

This dual concept will not take us beyond duality, we can see it understand it
and drop it and may be the dreaming will stop.


from JAN:

I vaguely remember a quote, saying that it is
easier to renounce pleasures than pain. In my case, things
were different: in all endeavors, the attitude behind it had
always been "all or nothing", either a 200% effort or "do
nothing at all" and by analyzing the course of events in
causal fashion, it was impossible to see how things could have
been differently; it would have required a person with a
different mind or character.. Furthermore, friends and
relatives never had complained about the "traits" that caused
pain whereas things they would rather see not, had been
brought up regularly. It became obvious that my idea of
"myself" was quite different from what others were seeing.
These kind of reflections made it possible to discard blame
and guilt and the pain that came with it. I came to the
conclusion that the course of events could not have been
avoided in any way. This brought peace of mind and enabled
renunciation of both pleasure and pain.

from JERRY:

The hunger to know: that's the worm that aerates the soil,
samples of which are included below, generously supplied by
Greg. Another practice is to eat the worm. Also, it's been
pointed out to me that this place could be considered a
practice. Seeing it as such could kill it, like being lucid
in a dream and suddenly waking up.

from GREG:

Larry asked this several days ago. What practices do people do, what can
they do? (I've just finished teaching a 7-day computer class, so now I
have some more time to contriubute.)

Larry, you have probably heard that practice is not required, and it sounds
paradoxical. Some say this, and then go ahead to prescribe practices too!
This is because doing a practice for a goal-oriented reason can actually
result in your seeing that practice has never been required. In formal
advaita vedanta study, doing devotional practices and selfless service,
worship of a deity, chanting, yoga for the mind and body - these are
explained as means that will quiet the mind so that insight and
understanding of your true nature will have a bit of space to dawn.

There are several practices that are pretty good. I've tried all the below
except where noted. If you're interested in looking into any of these, I
have phone numbers and lots of info about some. I'm sure that other NDS
folks can help as well.

Zen - it has non-dual philosophy, and practices such as koans,
zazen (seated silent meditation), and ancillary practices
such as martial arts, shakuhachi (flute), flower arranging,
archery, tea service, calligraphy, etc. Most Westerners
who are attracted to it also like the aesthetics. Zen
is so enormously popular that there's likely to be a Zendo
near you. Andrew also has lots of information on Zen.

Advaita Vedanta study - as taught by the orthodox schools such
as the Arsha Vidya Gurukulam or the Chinmaya Mission. It
involves study of the scriptures, some philosophy, and several
different forms of meditation, including the OM meditation,
which is designed to take you exerientially through the koshas
and sleep states to Brahman. Reading can be done without a
teacher, but it's much more effective with a teacher, especially
if you want to learn about the meditations.

Christian Contemplative Meditation - I haven't tried this, but
think Christiana has, perhaps others. I know about it from
NIGHT OF THE SOUL, and Bernadette Roberts' books.

Madhyamika reasonings - From the Ge-Luk-Ba school of Tibetan
Buddhism, ways of analyzing things such as cars, people,
one's self as to its true nature, and finding on every side
nothing other than the lack of inherent existence. This can
be done with or without a full blown Tibetan Buddhistic
by Nagarjuna (translated and commentary by Jay Garfield).
EMPTINESS YOGA, by Jeffrey Hopkins.

Shin Buddhism - Japanese form of Mahayana Pure Land Buddhism
that stresses universal compassion and saying the
Buddha's name out of gratitude.
All beings are already saved, because of Bodhisattva
Dharmakhara's vow to forego Buddhahood until all beings
achieved enlightenment. Since he is now Amida Buddha, his
vow was fulfilled. Having faith that salvation is already
assured because of Amida's grace, is called "shinjin,"
and is the stage of non-retrogression. It is very close
to some popular advaita teachings, and the members are
very nice. The most populous form of Buddhism in Japan.
It is a way I celebrate - to me it is beautiful.

Kashmir Shaivism - From Swami Muktananda. At its core it
is non-dualism, even though there has been lots of
cultural and glitzy overlay surrounding the SYDA YOGA
organization. They have lots and lots of practices.
I know one of their senior teachers, in case you'd
be interested in the serious side of this path.

Kashmir Shavistic yoga - One of my teachers does this
as a celebration, and teaches it as well. Jean Klein
practiced it. It is a good way to come to see the
body as sensations arising and falling against a
background of pure awareness. Blind spots in the
body can be seen and dissolved, leading to fewer
contractions and pockets of sensation that make us
think that we are located at the cneter of the
forehead, or in the chest.

Clear Seeing - Arjuna Ardagh, one of Papaji's former
students, instructed by Papaji to bring Satsang to
the West. Arjuna is a friend of mine - I think Xan
knows him too. He has an intensive method of leading
one back from the feeling/thinking level to experience
the Nature of who they are.

Native American - no personal experience but I hear very
wonderful things about it.

Kabbala - no real experience other than that set of teachings
touched upon in Rosicrucianism. I think Dan and Colette
and others might have more info.

Sedona Method - Lots of my friends are graduates or teachers
of this, and it is particularly popular with devotees of
Ramana Maharshi, Robert Adams, Papaji and the teachers
Papaji authorized.
It is a psychological method to "release" negative feelings
by seeing that they are dependent on other, deeper feelings
and beliefs. The deeper feelings are released, which
releases the more surface-level feelings, resulting in a
temporary feeling of clearness.

The Work - Byron Katie's method of seeing that you would be
just fine, perfection itself, without the beliefs that
underlie your present irritated or negative feelings.
Petros and perhaps others have attended weekend sessions.

Not non-dualistic, but... these hybrid Western/Eastern paths are
interesting to some, and I spent several years in them:

Anthroposophy / Theosophy / Rosicrucianism / Esoteric Freemasonry (Co-Masonry)
Hermetic studies...

Hope this helps,


Tim Harris:

One need only understand that 'one' of the 'two' does
not exist. This is the key to 'unlocking' the argument
and freeing your 'self'. Life (heaven, nirvana,
advaita, eden...whatever) does not happen tomorrow. If
it is to be 'realized' it must be realized with 'this'
moment not 'that' one. Thus 'there' is 'not two'.


from XAN:

All my foolishness arises in the Silent IAm. I would be
even more of a fool to turn a blind eye to it. I am
particular alert to the mind's capacity for self-deception.
It is a core element of my 'practice' to be vigilant in this
way. (Larry take note)

It is walking the razor's edge to be watchful for mind's
expectations, projections and judgements while absorbed
in/as Silent Heart. I find that willingness to see, and seeing
through my own bullshit leads to deepening and expansion
of awareness.


From: "Jan Barendrecht" <[email protected]>

The issue of "manifest vs. unmanifest"....... It can not be
emphasized enough there is no such division as
"manifest/unmanifest". It is always possible to find a smaller
"fundamental" particle; the smaller, the more energy required
to detect it and there is a limit to the amount of energy,
available for the purpose of detecting. The unmanifest is one
white point in an ever changing field of grayness with one
black point, the manifest. Every gray point in the field is
unique and yet consist of the two extremes, black and white.
One's real nature is the wholeness of this field; when this is
realized, both black and white transform into transparency
until no opposites are left.

Hymns concerning the unqualifiedness of the unmanifest can
only be expressed when the link with the manifest isn't broken
yet. Yet the emphasis is on the unmanifest; enlightenment
could be defined as recognition of the unmanifest, no matter
how the recognition is mixed with the manifest, or the name
given to this recognition. Acknowledging only the unmanifest
is a folly; the beauty of a flower isn't diminished by its
transitoriness. If that were so, plastic flowers would have
eliminated 'real' ones long ago. The possible beauty of each
unique transient life will become self-evident when having
taken the consequence of the indivisibility of

The consequence of the artificial division between
manifest/unmanifest is acknowledgement that recognition of
"just" the unmanifest won't do; in a similar fashion, one has
to recognize the indivisibility of manifest/unmanifest.
Because the mind is only capable to look at things serially,
not simultaneously, recognition isn't the proper word; the
proper term is "successive realization" or transformation and
consists of a series of events, some of which are common to
all human mind-bodies. Now, one's attitude regarding this
mind-body will pay-off; if the mind-body is perceived as a bag
of filth, bags of filth are seen everywhere; if the mind-body
is perceived as a receptacle for suffering, suffering is seen
everywhere, if the mind-body is seen as a unique opportunity
for learning and transformation, opportunities for learning
and transformation are seen everywhere. As you meditate, so
you become :)


TIM G and DAN:

You know not to whom you are speaking, because when
you speak to him, you address no one. No personality equates to
unpredictability. Unpredictability is commonly viewed as "strange" or
"unusual," or in extreme cases, "insane." Yet it is the dull, repetitious,
boring nature of "personality" that is truly insane, utterly empty of
genuineness and spontaneity. Jan flows with life, wherever life may take
him. Those clinging to rocks will see some strange shape rush by. Those
also flowing will see "Jan" as he is.

I found much beauty in this statement. This moment is unpredictable
*in toto*. Its only apparent predictability occurs when we separate
our memory from it and then use our memory to convince ourselves we
predicted something. Ha! This moment is totally spontaneous.
The only personalities that are seen occur when we perform the same
memory trick. I like the way you took a look at "Jan" flowing by -
that's clearly the way to look at him! When I'm flowing
and "Jan's" flowing - how can I see "me" or "him"? Only if I take friction
and use it to draw false conclusions will I imagine I know him
at all (or me for that matter) -- Love --



Water flows with many currents, back waters, eddies,
undertoes, and curves... yet, all in the same
direction and from beginning to the end.

There can be no going 'by' said the 'tortoise' to the


ANDREW offered a quote by Suzuki Shosan:

"Finally, in my sixties, the meaning of the phrase "Don't be deluded"
came to me unexpectedly. At that time I just danced about, saying "Don't
be deluded! Don't be deluded!" My heart filled with gratitude. If
someone had actually been about to cut off my head, I would have
considered it an illusion. But I carefully thought it all through and
returned to my old self and to my various methods of practice. I still
can't stop treasuring this bag of dung. The thing that we call existence
is deeply ingrained."- Suzuki Shosan


SKYE wrote:

I myself see no need for haughtily casting aside or
annihilating anything, as if it were some low life, left
over, 'somethings'! simply because we can speak of it.

XAN answered:

< What is the difference between a "living body"
and a "dead body?" >

Like the difference between a car that runs and
one that is totaled - It can't be used by awareness
to interact in this thin dimension of illusions any more.


from MELODY:

It was more like... by *embracing* lonliness,
Aloneness was, too.

It was some of that 'bitter-sweet' I have talked about
before. Sometimes I wonder if what I call bittersweet is
what the masters call freedom from that the
pain is felt but is wrapped in the 'sweetness' of a peaceful,
and even blissful, heart.

It seems that the minute I'm willing to say,
"This is perfect", and quit trying to push it away,

the Sweetness wraps itself around the situation

and I get lost in her embrace.

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