Jerry Katz
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The wind carves shapes into the beach sand

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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #196

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Larry Biddinger:

"Would you write a few words about
sacredness and manifestation and


Manifestation is only sacred when we
are aware.
Awareness is a manifestation of the
Sacredness needs neither manifestation nor awareness to Be.
"Also, concerning presence, I was looking into awareness today by
investigating nowness. I think nowness may be slightly different from
here/now in that here/now may have some of the quality of stage presence
in it, while in nowness I didn't find ANY presence. It's as though
there wasn't any presence in simply being present. Perhaps presence is
something that can only be experienced, as such, in another. Anyway, I
would like to read your views on this.

*** hadn't had any views on this.. but as you ask, I can discern the
subject-object dynamic of presence. Perception is an implied bifurcating
requirement. Presence can likely be experience in another or in self as
other.. but I also see the place of no experience.



Everyone's running around trying to say something.

English is nobody's first language.

Be still and return to your original language.


John M. quotes Kahlil Gibran:

"In the ancient days, when the first quiver of speech came to my lips, I
ascended the holy mountain and spoke unto
God, saying, "Master, I am thy slave. Thy hidden will is my law and I shall
obey thee for ever more."
But God made no answer, and like a mighty tempest passed away.
And after a thousand years I ascended the holy mountain and again spoke
unto God, saying, "Creator, I am thy creation. Out of clay hast thou
fashioned me and to thee I owe mine all."
And God made no answer, but like a thousand swift wings passed away.
And after a thousand years I climbed the holy mountain and spoke unto God
again, saying, "Father, I am thy son. In pity and love thou hast given me
birth, and through love and worship I shall inherit thy kingdom."
And God made no answer, and like the mist that veils the distant hills he
passed away.
And after a thousand years I climbed the sacred mountain and again spoke
unto God, saying, "My God, my aim and my fulfillment ; I am thy yesterday and
thou art my tomorrow. I am thy root in the earth and thou art my flower in
the sky, and together we grow before the face of the sun."
Then God leaned over me, and in my ears whispered words of sweetness, and
even as the sea that enfoldeth a brook that runneth down to her, he enfolded
And when I descended to the valleys and the plains God was there also.
Kahlil Gibran, from "The Madman"


I do not think that one should try to get rid of the idea of I. First,
cannot get rid of ourselves or the basic I am. What we need to do is
the mind. It is the collection of thoughts and feelings that create the
sense of an isolated, individual, ego based self. If we quiet the mind
the thoughts and feelings are gone and the concept of ego naturally


This could be a matter terminology: As The "I" can't literally wipe out
itself, in that respect, getting rid of "I" is impossible. What is
possible, is self-sacrifice, but usually this is temporary. By rephrasing
to 'the "I" is gotten rid off', it is a different matter:
1. In unconditional surrender, the "will to live and enjoy" is given up
which leaves "I" as an object of observation, as thoughts like "I will...,
I want..., I enjoy..., I suffer etc." no longer arise.
2. By giving up the fruits of action, thoughts like" I made a million bucks
today, I'm going to do..." no longer arise.
3. In selfless service, thoughts are centered around others, forgetting "I"
4. By observing thoughts and emotions rise and subside (and remaining
passive), the identifications with "I" will wear off: it will leave the "I"
which then appears to be absent, because as a mental construct, it only
coexists with these identifications.

Most paths will have the effect of curbing "I" related thoughts. The
scientific edge is the work that has been done on the "me" meme; from this
perspective there is indeed acknowledgement people think they are the doer
although the readiness to act is present before the notion of doership
arises. This leaves "I" as a tenacious mental construct, the result of
repeated identification with the mind-body.


Tim G:

I see the space between the words as containing all the meaning... the
words themselves, as pretty or emotional as they may seem, have no meaning
at all.

An interesting way to read: ignore the words, and look only at the spaces
between them. This may result in greater understanding than if the words
are focused on.



Understanding and effort are useless, we know nothing at all.
Every action is a futile and meaningless effort.
Every concept is empty fabrication, even the concept of existence.
What I think is real is only the idea of real.
It's all right not to understand. It's all right not to understand.
It's all right not to understand. It's all right not to understand.
I live on the earth to live on the earth.
Living is simply the consequence of being born.
It is perfect and mysterious.

Scientific knowledge is dead knowledge, dissected. A soulless ghost.
Philosophical knowledge is human speculation. A ghost with soul but no

Realization can only be intuitive, from an unnamable source. It cannot
be learned, it cannot be understood.
It's all right not to understand. It's all right not to understand.


Gen offers some of her brother Nial's offerings:

re: nonduality/duality, Nial writes:
"you cannot communicate *anything* without duality! everything has its
opposite and if it *didn't* you could not relate to it! I've thought
about this a lot. Two perceptions, sacred or world. *Now* pay close
attention, there is a very present danger to trying to bring peace to
the world. We can only really understand peace as the aftermath of war
and that would be a mess, I don't know. . . .But if love for your fellow
beings and steadfast knowledge and faith and good works isn't enough,
then I will mindfully perish trying!"

Nial adds that he "can hardly wait to log in my own dual self."
and sends a poem.
it is called:
Some may say i have fractional reality
Or stereopathic psychosis
I install dreams on my walls
And lose the key to the locks
So i sit under trees
In the pouring rain
Like it would really kill me
Shit, it won't even try
So i answer questions while i'm miles away
Looking while they look
And wonder what they wonder
Give me tests take my blood
Scan my brain read my fuckin'
tea leaves
And somewhere in the sediment
At the bottom of a chinese cup
I filter my distorted vision
To match the music i hear
With hundred yard gaze
I flee
for all i know
i'm the string on the neck
of some mad gysies guitar. ..


Tim H:

Must compassion be any 'thing' more than
non-interference and is not non-interfernce tolerance

Must I 'always be 'angry' towards the innocent
strangers that I can only know what they show and
never more?

Perhaps if I got angry at my anger it would consume
it's 'self'. I am told that the 'tail' is awful but
the 'taste' improves as you move upward.


There are two types of people in this world: those who divide the world into
two types of people and those who don't.
Among those who divide are those who think their particular brand of bullshit
to be holy cow dung while others' is just the contemptible kind.
Me, i have transcended this dichotomy. My name in Hungarian, taking small
liberties, means horseshit, a shit of an altogether different colour.



No remedy, no fight
No seer, no sight
In the moon light
grass is glistening
All alone in dark of night
Who is speaking?
Who is listening?


in the glistening grass
under moon light pass

Old Hag:

Stroking beaches
kicking sands
Brushing bodies
holding hands

Never alone in dark of night
who is speaking?
who is listening?
With Her kiss all questions



Ultimately, the only
truly indispensible yoga
and "path" is life itself,
which I suppose is karma
yoga whether we call it
that or not.


Some random thoughts inspired by
those words:
Relationship is all.
All of these words arise from
relationship. Perception of
relationship seems to distort
the actuality of relationship.
"I" start wanting to sound a
certain way, want to be viewed
a certain way. Once an "I thought"
arises and is expressing, there
is no quashing it, quelling it,
getting rid of it. It thrives
on fighting against being quashed,
quelled, and vanquished. In fact,
the fight to quash it often reveals
latent "I-thought" tendencies
within the very urge to squelch it.

Bruce Lee
stole an ancient martial arts
saying: "My art is the art of
fighting without fighting".
Only by not-fighting with it
is the "I" thought fully uncovered
and emptied of any apparent substance.
That is the observation from here.
Fighting with it allows it to
defend itself self-righteously,
thus distracting itself from
full awareness and immolation.
Fighting against an "other's" I-thought
can also provide distraction, engaging
awareness in the drama of combat, rather
than in the Light of Itself.



the human life experience does not
require a meaning that must be understood. The only meaning to living
this life is in living this life. For a lifetime, I am a guy called
andrew who experiences life on earth, with all of its potential for love
and pain, experience and relationship. Excellent, what a treat. What
more do I need to know?
There is a mystery which always remains a mystery. Realization is
acceptance that this mystery remains mystery, is never understood. It is
no flaw or imperfection that this mystery remains. The mystery is
perfect. It is essential.


Will Calvin:

The mind cannot be quieted, but can be observed impartially with practice.
The observation is the quietness. Attempting to quiet the mind perpetuates the



Someone sings a song
Accompanied by drum and gong
The neighbors come along
They have an I AM jam
Accompanied by drum and gong

Some birds are singing in the rain
We are we are we are
The journey's long but not in vain
We have no luggage and no sorrow
We fly today, we fly tomorrow

A lobster playing with a clam
Is it real - or is it just a sham
The clam won't open up and lobster exclaims damn!
Then it thinks and shows a frown
You open up or I AM closing down
"Where shall I go" said the bumble-bee.
"The past is too bad, the present is too sad and the future I can't see.
To the past I can't go, the future I don't know, the present ain't for me".

Along came hungry cat and she gave bumble-bee a whack.
"To the past you go, your future is a drop or so and now you are my snack".


from Lynne:

The Waking - T. Roethke

I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow
I feel my fate in what I cannot fear
I learn by going where I have to go

We think by feeling. What is there to know?
I hear my being dance from ear to ear
I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow

Of those so close beside me, which are you?
God bless the Ground! I shall walk softly there
And learn by going where I have to go

Light takes the Tree; but who can tell us how?
The lowly worm climbs up a winding stair
I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow

Great Nature has another thing to do
To you and me; so take the lively air
And, lovely, learn by going where to go

This shaking keeps me steady. I should know
What falls away is always, and is near
I wake to sleap and take my waking slow
I learn by going where I have to go

Old Hag:

got me reminiscing, think i will pull out the guitar from under the
pizza cartons and play me a ditty from long ago...

"lalalal...Why this feeling?
Why this glow?
Why the thrill when
you say hello?

I must tell you what my heart
knows is true...
Mr. Wonderful,
that's youuuuuu....

Why this trembling
when you speak
why the Joy when
you touch my cheek?

lalalalalal, my heart
knows is true,
Mr. Wonderful
that's you.

And why this longing
to know your charms,
to spend forever
here in Your Arms.

Oh, there's much more
I could say,
But the words keep
slipping away,
And my heart knows
one thing is true,
Mr. Wonderful,
that's you.

One more thing,
then I'm throuuuuugh,
Mr. Wonderful!
Mr. Wonderful!!!
Mr. Won..der...full!!"



It's alright to tell us this.
It's alright


Neo asked:

If you would not mind, would you tell me the origins of this list and how it
came to be?

Jerry replied:

Hi neo,

Thank you for contributing to the quality of this place.

I guess the fact that it's not really clear who the owner
is, is a good thing. It's as though we're flying in
v-formation, with no single person at the point all the
time. Positions shift.

Glo's description is accurate.

This list began when about a dozen people decided to break
away from the Kundalini list in May of 1998. Several of them
are still here and still very active.

This original, small, and uncertain-as-to-their-future
group, started the I AM list. You can read the public
archives and re-live those very first days:

In that August there was a further breaking away to this
list, which was called Nondualism. After a few months the
name was changed to Nonduality Salon. The new name came in a
flash, out of the blue.

In January of '99, Harsha started HarshaSatsangh. It is a
huge success with well over 150 members, while remaining low
key. Most of the people here are on Harsha's list.

I leave you with a quote from the first day of the existence
of the I AM list, when none of us knew there would ever be a
Nonduality Salon or whether we'd survive as a group. It
describes a spirit, a way of looking at things, that hasn't
changed. And it never sounded better:

"No answer can be given to anyone. But the right questions
can be asked. And how you address them can be discussed and
futher questions asked. Everyone on this List is carrying
out the function of the Guru. Each one of us, without
exception, is Grace itself. You sign up for this list, you
are the Guru."

That's how we stepped into this list game, it still holds
up, and that's why it's hard to know who the 'leader' is.

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