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#1969 - Wednesday, November 3, 2004 - Editor: Jerry
This issue consists of excerpts from interviews in the new book, This Is It, by Jan Kersschot.
These talks are really about two people getting together and talking about 'truth,' or reality, or Consciousness, or 'this,' or 'It,' or whatever you want to call it. The interviewer, Kersschot, isn't trying to probe anyone for secrets, isn't giving anyone a hard time, isn't searching or seeking; it's two people conversing from the common place of enjoying reality. It's a good book. If you're interested in buying it at Amazon.com, click here: http://tinyurl.com/66az2
More excerpts will be published in the next few Highlights.
JK: And religious organizations have only stimulated these belief systems about what happens after we die.
TP: But the truth is that when you die, it is just over: the novel is over.
JK: Does it mean that the light is just turned off?
TP: It is consciousness manifesting, and then being still.
JK: So, the idea of a soul is our creation, because we are afraid of dying. And similarly, the hope of reincarnation is a reflection of our fear of physical death. People are simply afraid of disappearing forever, and their minds just make up the rest. Our minds create stories that suggest that we survive after physical death, that we continue.
TP: Yes, indeed. But there is no soul: it is just a belief system.
JK: But at the same time, it is true in a way for those who believe in it.
TP: Yes it is. When you look at most belief systems, they actually last as long as you believe in them. You can believe you have a soul for five minutes, then five minutes later you believe that you are angry with your wife, and so on.
JK: You mean that they exist as long as they are there as belief systems.
TP: People put such an investment in belief systems. For example, 'I believe in karma, I believe in an afterlife', and that is how it seems as long as you believe in it. At that moment, it is what it is. But five minutes later... it is gone! [laughs] It is wonderful, isn't it?
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JK: Once you have 'seen' this, you start recognizing this same truth in completely different approaches. Words can never describe this 'One Awareness' but only point at it.
DH: And you see, what you said Jan is so true: there are a million miles between real spiritual life and knowing all about it. You can be a professor in religion or philosophy, you may know all the rules about loving your neighbour as yourself, but as long as you don't 'see' it, it is just a concept. You may know all the scriptures, and still be a million miles away from the core.
JK: It is about being it, not knowing it.
JK: Is discovering this seeing more about becoming ordinary instead of being special?
DH: It makes you more ordinary than special. You don't feel special. I think this is very important because this seeing has nothing to do with a guru and disciples. I don't behave like that because I don't feel like that. When you really see who you really are, you see you are No-thing, and so you are not superior. The fact that you wish to celebrate it, and share it with friends, that is your privilege. But it doesn't mean that other people aren't there, they are all in a certain sense enlightened. They are just ignorant about their own enlightenment. So you can't feel superior. It is very democratic, this vision.
JK: It has nothing to do with one person being better or more spiritual than the other.
DH: The word enlightenment is a dirty word because it has been misused. I don't use it in workshops. The sentence 'I am enlightened and you are endarkened' just won't do. It doesn't work that way.
JK: Your message is completely different.
DH: I say, 'This is obvious, this is sharable.' My story is about sharing this. It is good news. It is not about superiority...
~ ~ ~
JK: Oh yes. Talking about this with people who see this, sharing the beauty of this silence, it is quite inspiring.
MP: For me, too, you know. I also like to meet in this open and natural way. It is not that I am getting anything, I just love to meet and then, this 'inspiration' becomes deeper.
JK: Such a meeting has no goal. And seeing It is about being natural. It has no trajectory. Or a process in time.
MP: And it is not due to practice.
JK: It doesn't come through effort.
MP: This is an important point. Once you realize, then, you don't have to do anything any more. You just see that everything is happening by itself.
JK: Yes, that's liberation.
MP: When you really get fed up, you are very ready to leave it all behind. Basta, enough. But if you don't reach that point, some fascination will pop up. As long as you see yourself as a seeker, it keeps you going. But when you search is ended, it doesn't matter any more, you know. It doesn't trouble you.
JK: Because there's nobody there to trouble.
MP: The identification with the sense of 'I' disappears somehow, so ... no problem.
JK: Anything can happen.
MP: Yes. That is what I like about this life; you know what attracts me is to live 'presently'. Then, there is an aliveness which brings all these unexpected things. And life is simple and great. Not great in the sense of peak moments or such, but great by its simplicity. Its freshness. And there is no fear about what is going to happen -- there is no time anyway.
JK: You let the so-called future come to you: you don't have to go anywhere, you don't have to reach a particular goal. And then you see that there even is no future. No past, nothing ever happened.
JK: When we talk about living 'presently' we don't refer to 'living in the here and now' from a personal perspective [as one can find in many popular books about relaxation, spiritual success and meditation], but we refer here to just being without any personal perspective. I mean, not influenced by concepts from the past that influence our future.
JK: And when we realize that there is no past and no future, that there even is no personality, then it is seen that there is nothing in particular that has to be done.
MP: Finally! Finally!
~ ~ ~
JK: All I can say -- for myself -- is not that I have attained something 'special' but just that the seeking is over.
NG: All you can say is that Jan's search has stopped, but that doesn't mean that Jan wouldn't mind winning the lottery. The search for awakening is gone. But even when you have recognized your true identity, you may still want peaceful or serene states, and in that case you can go meditate or have a picnic on a hillside.
JK: And you still see these feelings and thoughts coming by, but there is no longer a craving for something more. There is just an ordinary life being lived; nobody else would notice any difference.
NG: But, you have recognized who you are. And life is lived from that point of view. But it doesn't mean that you have an experience of non-doeship all the time. So there may still be an experience of the small 'I', of the person. But this person has no longer the capacity of searching for Consciousness or God, because you see that all is Consciousness. There is nothing else that could exist but Consciousness. And if there is still a person appearing who has the habit of seeking, that is OK. But now you know that everything is Consciousness, everything is you. There is nothing that is not you.
JK: And seeing that is a relief. And a release.
NG: It is. And still there is an ordinary life being lived here.
JK: I would say I am still interested in all this because it has always been my favourite subject. But I am not doing so out of a need rather out of the joy of recognizing a 'common knowing'.
NG: I know exactly what you mean.
JK: There is the joy of sharing this, and there is a 'ripening' in the sense that we see more clearly how simple all this is. so, I still enjoy going to see people to talk about this, or read about this.
NG: When you go to a meeting where they talk about this subject, you are sitting there knowing Who you are now, there is a subtle kind of thrill. You know there is nothing to get. [laughter] There is nothing to get and still you are sitting there and enjoying it! You look around and see people asking questions about it, and at the same time you see how obvious 'This' is.
~ ~ ~
This Is It, by Jan Kersschot
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