Jerry Katz
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The wind carves shapes into the beach sand

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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #203

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Glo had written:

Perhaps there is a down side to having these peak experiences with
with God and nothing after ever can match that bliss felt.

Kristie responds:

Xan posted a note the other day on a kundalini experience that
inspired three days of "bliss" and a re-newed awareness (my words) of the
sactity of all other beings........

Since then I have been pondering, again, the two months I lived in that
state of mind on the streets.....on the enormous loss of the loss of that in many ways that loss crippled my "natural" I like what you wrote and resonated with it
strongly......those peak experiences are life'll never be
the same they come in moments or seconds or days........but
God!!!!! I want it all back.....the wanting could kill ya!!! More lessons in


from Andrew:

The golden nutcracker,
who was a tough nut to crack,
sees tough nuts everywhere,
and driven by compassion,
moves to crack them.
But some of those around
are not nuts at all
but softer things
like eggs perhaps,
or flowers.


offered by new member, Jackie Leve (aka killerbutterfly)

Bullet With Butterfly Wings
The Smashing Pumpkins

the world is a vampire, sent to drain
secret destroyers, hold you up to the flames
and what do i get, for my pain
betrayed desires, and a piece of the game
even though i know - i suppose i'll show
all my cool and cold - like old job
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
then someone will say what is lost can never be saved
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
now i'm naked, nothing but an animal
but can you fake it, for just one more show
and what do you want, i want to change
and what have you got
when you feel the same
even though i know - i suppose i'll show
all my cool and cold - like old job
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
then someone will say what is lost can never be saved
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
tell me i'm the only one
tell me there's no other one
jesus was an only son
tell me i'm the chosen one
jesus was an only son for you
despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage
and i still believe that i cannot be saved



Two thousand years of just decline
Yet some will cheer while others whine
The world is mad
So it is said
Yet some will say it's fine

Hey is it Yama's party, dear?
Let's celebrate that with a cheer
As you can see
The food is free
Please can I have another beer?

An occultist sits in his room
His vision has galactic zoom
he wants to go
escape the show
Of madness and impending doom

The vision of a lighted cave
With singing of inspired stave
He cuts things short
With teleport
It's called the siddhi "save"

For teleport one needs a fee
One that's too big for you or me
Give up the "I"
Or let it fry
And one is ever free.


also from Jan:

First read this disclaimer and then relax
The following could hit some like an ax
It is only pun
It is meant to be fun
Received out of hell with an obsolete fax

Some like to play master
To awaken one faster
exert a shock
to loosen a block
But sometimes that is a disaster

Some have seen the light but never seen the lamp
They are the ones with sight who do not see the damp
What works for me
It works for thee
So just endure a little cramp

Sometimes one proclaims to be master
For some that it is fun but for others, disaster
Some laugh out loud
While the others bout
Goo ruing asked by another forecaster

One cannot prove that one is free
For more than words one cannot see
So just be still
And wait until
No trace is left of "me".



NDS is in turmoil these days,
there's some crying, some theories, some praise
"It's all grist for the mill,"
says the one who stands, still,
"in the end it's the piper who pays!"


Greg provides lots of Buddhist links:

I've divided the clutter here into 4 parts:


Here are some links on nondualism in Madhyamika (Middle Way) Buddhism, with
an emphasis on the Middle Way Consequence School, which considers itself
the "highest" path metaphysically. It doesn't say that the time required
for its enlightenment (one lifetime, if you do tantra) is as quick as
Dzogchen does (one instant). But it does say that all other schools leave
some remainder of subtle grasping at something or other. About Dzogchen it
would say that Dzogchen grasps at the notion of a permanent self or
essence. It is the same thing it says about Advaita Vedanta.

Nonduality in Madhyamika Buddhism is called emptiness, and it can be a
brainy thing when you first encounter its teachings. In the Tibetan
teaching traditions, it is taught only to the able student of very
promising intellect. It is not easy to understand, and with a personal
teacher it will be given in gauged levels and doses, so as not to dissuade
the student. It can actually be *frightening*. Even the higher teachings
of Advaita Vedanta can frighten some students, and Madhyamika, even moreso.
Madhyamika is often considered to be downright nihilistic by Vedantins.
In the West, philosophers try to write about it. Some of the links below
are by Western philosophers.

The Internet is not the *best* way to learn about non-duality in Buddhism.
If you don't have access to a teacher who can teach it to you, the next
best way is through books.

Here's a rough quality-control key:

*** very good
** good
* better than average

The best two books that are easily accessible and clear are these two,
handy at most Barnes & Noble, and at

***EMPTINESS YOGA, by Jeffrey Hopkins. No link for this one, but you can
find reviews at I'm sure. He gives you meditations so you can
understand what Buddhist emptiness is.

MULAMADHYAMIKAKARIKA. By Jay L. Garfield. Oxford University Press, 1995.
ppb. The first chapter appeared as an article given below. (see Dependent
Arising and the Emptiness of Emptiness below)
Preview of the book at:


***Buddhist Resource file - Not so much about emptiness, but this it the
largest source of links on Buddhism on the Net. A great resource.

***Buddhist Studies WWW Virtual Library - another mammoth listing of
Buddhist resources. Pretty well categorized.


***The Tree of Enlightenment: An Introduction to the Major Traditions of
by Peter Della Santina. Chapter on Madhyamika:

**The Two Truths, by Denmo Lochö Rinpoche. Denmo Lochö Rinpoche, the
ex-abbot of Namgyel, His Holiness the Dalai Lama's monastery in Dharamsala,
India, taught for two weeks at Root Institute in Bodhgaya, India December
1995. Here is an extract. Translated by Ven Gareth Sparham.

*Epoche and `Suunyataa: Skepticism East and West, by Jay Garfield.
A very insightful writer on the relation between Western skepticism and
Buddhist Emptiness.

**Problematics of the Buddhist nature of self, by Kenneth Inada.
Heavy philosophical article on the nature of the anaatman ("nonself") idea
in Buddhism.

*Naagaarjuna and Zeno on motion

***Dependent Arising and the Emptiness of Emptiness: Why Did Nagarjuna
Start with
Causation? By Jay Garfield

**Textbook list for a course in "Nonduality in Tibetan and Indian Thought"
at Columbia University

Jerry responds to new member, Jay:


> Folks!
> The title of this list gave me the impression that here I could find a
> discussion (or several) that found it's inspiration and had its direction
> from a "non-dualistic" perspective. It appears that here, like contemporary
> novels, the title of something doesn't necessarily have much to do with the
> actual content.

Hi Jay. You're not related to Jay Leno, are you? Hey, just
kidding. Besides, it doesn't have anything to do with
nondual content.

I think you'll find that what is going on here is that
people who naturally tend to see things from a nondual view,
are bringing different aspects of their lives here. My late
wife used to say: "If they'll fight With you, they'll fight
For you." So if there's a cacophony, it's familial. Now I
know, we shouldn't be 'fighting' at all.

>It's all about attracting market share vis-a-vis getting
> your attention.

Don't be silly. SEX!!

>Tittillating, to be sure. Descriptive? Maybe a little. I
> would go more with suggestive. But hey, I'm okay with that. One more thing I
> noticed: The title of this list is negative. *Non*duality.
> Hmmm...interesting that we don't have a more affirming word for what it is
> we are trying to apprehend. I can think of a few, but I don't want to be
> pushy. It's only my first day here! (And I really don't like pissing
> contests.)

> So, as I was following the threads on this list, and what an action-packed
> list this is!, I noticed some dualistic thinking creeping into the postings.
> "Objective" vs. "subjective" competition, "mind"/"heart" and "mind"/"body"
> dichotomies, etc. Just an observation...or maybe I'm trying to state an
> opinion? I'm not really sure. It has been so long since I have had the
> opportunity to express what I'm thinking about to a group that shares
> similar goals. I have to get my bearings before I can effectively
> participate here.

I wouldn't know what to make of this group if I had just
stumbled upon it.

> Another observation: There is a lot of passive and overt aggression here
> and, perhaps more telling, a strong reaction to the aggression. This is
> fertile ground for catharsis, in my experience. A good time to reflect on
> those aspects in our lives that are, well, perhaps unsavory. I know I'm at
> risk of fanning the flames here when I say this, but thank you for that!

I agree with that.

> Okay, last observation. A few people have mentioned that it was difficult
> for them to understand the postings of another. This is a common dilemma in
> discussions of this nature. We tend to get too technical and
> self-referential in our explications and too insulated in our abilities to
> understand what is being expressed. The challenge for me here will be to
> focus on the communication that takes place between the pixels, as it were,
> as well as to build a common language. I look forward to taking that on.
> I have dipped my toe in the water -- it was a bit tepid...
> PS: Thanks for the welcome Neo and Jerry!

Thanks for being open-minded and knowing where to look. Are
you sure you're not related to Jay Leno?

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