Jerry Katz
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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #213

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Once Silence is fully known, no thought
can silence it.


Beautiful expression here. Silence
alone is. Each thought moment
is a construct that simultaneously
"appears" and "dissolves"
in Silence, each instant. -- Silently
with Love, Lovingly Silent --

***gen sent this poem Dec. 23rd but it got lost in net limbo until now.


I can find my way down
having made my
ascent on this ladder
i know each rung
that faltered
that was secure
and where my foot fell.

I can make my way down
with easy peace
for i've dropped my burden
on the way up--
and with empty hands
i step down
onto the ground
where a figure remains,
reminds of what is eternal.

I can keep the ladder
in mind
as an old friend who taught
and then dissipated
into tranquil sky, grey or blue--
but will not clutch to the sides
for i am home,
rock solid in the thought
that i am.

and the ladder was never
and the ladder was i
and this is the way
that the Christ comes down,
the way that he Buddha finds
the root of the tree
is only the way that i see.
this way down
the way to sit
--gen berlin


Nothingness has nothing outside of itself, no qualities, hence how could arise
the idea of
a desire for stimulation?


Very easily actually. There is a body/mind that has as a component
of its functioning the experience of desire. Realization does not
bring about an obliteration of desire. Realization brings about the
dissolution of the attachment to desire. Desire continues to function
as a component of the mind.


Advaita Vedanta - 108 total Upanishads
(explained to me by George Romney, teacher at the Chinmaya Mission, an
international advaita vedanta school)
There are 108 Upanishads in all. They comprise
the largest portion the textual tradition of
advaita (the other two thirds being the
Bhagavad Gita and the Brahma Sutras). This is
why malas have 108 beads.

Buddhism - 108 total delusions
(explained to me as one of several ways of reckoning the 108 number, by
Rev. T. Kenjitsu Nakagaki, New York Buddhist Church)-

3 x 6 x 2 x 3 = 108 total delusions

3 root delusions: greed, anger, ignorance
experienced via the
6 senses: sight, smell, sound, taste, touch, consciousness
with a modality in either of
2 directions: pleasant, unpleasant
occurring in any of the
3 times: past, present, future

Buddhist malas also have 108 beads (though there are other smaller ones for
the wrist, and to use in ceremonies and services). And I've heard it
claimed that Buddhists used malas before Hindus did... Anyone have any
info on that?



>>The idea of being organized by nonduality, to me, means the
de-organization of conditionings, the breakdown of fear.<<

Interesting duality there. :-p (You know, organizing and de-organizing? Bad
joke, I know, but I couldn't help's not even funny.)

Jerry, we have written quite a lot about conditionings. I don't want to
presume, so could you tell me a bit about them in the context of your post?

>>As that de-organization (is that a word?) proceeds it is
evidenced as a unique path. The path is unique because the
organization of conditionings is unique. We're screwed up in
our unique ways.<<

[Jay digresses: "Reverse engineering, maybe? Whoever wrote that software did
a very sloppy job, no? Too complicated, too many loops, too many loose ends,
diversions and redundancies in the flowchart, so to speak. But then weren't
you the one who warned me about the obfuscating characteristics of
analogies? Wait a minute...that was Bruce."]

First, who cares whether de-organization is a word or not? I follow you and
that's enough for me. Second, I assume that these processes (organization
and de-organization) are unique, but I have heard and read that this
uniqueness is imagined. Are we really screwed up in our unique ways, or are
we just Screwed Up?

>>So each person's path is unique. Each person's unravelling,
or de-screwing (now that's not a word, but it would be a
great method of birth control) is unique, because the
intertwining of conditionings is unique.<<

Okay, maybe "de-screwing" is getting a bit too inventive. I won't even
venture a guess as to its merits in birth control.

>>It doesn't mean a person ends up a big zero. There is still
personality, humanity. What 'being organized by nonduality'
means is allowing fundamental nature to be known. If
anything, it means de-organization.<<

This clicks with my experience. Seeing through the conditioning and allowing
oneself to be organized by non-duality wouldn't necessarily change any
outward appearance of the person so blessed -- unless the person chose to
let this "blossoming" manifest outwardly.

>>Once de-organized, or liberated, could one then attempt to
organize nonduality into a teaching or approach? Yes, though
it would appear to be an engagement with a corpse.<<

Hmmm. I don't know anyone who would try to do that, but I suppose it's
possible. I don't understand what you mean by this appearing to be an
"engagement with a corpse." Being ourselves organized by nonduality and
having awoken to this (hypothetically speaking for myself, of course),
wouldn't we also see this nonduality weaving its way through the lives of
those still asleep? Would we not see this and recognize this beautiful
potential? Would we not try to awaken it in them? And should this be
distilled into a teaching or path? Why not just a living, moment to moment
relationship whereby doors are lovingly opened at the right time?




At present I am learning (or is it unlearning :-)
the difference between I Am (whole) & the mistaken notion
that I am my personality. There seems to be a core Amness
devoid of individual person.

This is the Impersonal God.

I also want to clarify for myself, the difference between a
core amness (I Am That) a differentiated witness, and the
constructed programmed personality.

***David Hodges:

>From Sri Nisargadatta:
"The person merges into the witness, the witness into
awareness, awareness into pure being, yet identity is not
lost, only its limitations are lost.
It is transfigured and becomes the real Self, the sadguru,
the eternal friend and guide."

I have had the same question as Colette. As awareness
became more and more situated in the Witness it meditation,
everything that flowed through awareness, both external
things like sounds and sights, and internal things like
feelings and thoughts, was in the field of awareness that
was witnessing all this. The Witness is the root level of
awareness that cannot itself be witnessed. If you are
witnessing it, it isn't the Witness.

The question arises this way: If the Witness is the ground
of awareness, and there are all these things passing through
this ground of awareness, isn't this Dualistic? Why are
there two, the Witness and that which is witnessed? Having
penetrated through the illusion of the separate self, why is
there still this separation between Awareness and the
contents of Awareness?

It seems that the way to experience the answer to this
question, which is a good one to use as self-inquiry, is to
keep on meditating, keep on getting more and more grounded
in the Witness, and eventually the realization is given that
Witness also is an illusion. Just as the separate self did
before, the Witness illusion gives way into pure
undifferentiated awareness. And then it seems (and the
Nisargadatta quote implies this) that there is a further
level beyond awareness, which is pure Being.

Just because the Witness is revealed to be an illusion does
not mean that it is not a valuable tool, because it is.
Just as the development of a personal self in childhood is
very important to the social survival of the child and
adult, so the development of the ability to abide in the
Witness is very important as we are inducted deeper and
deeper into the NonDual.
Someone once said on this list (I think it was Gene) that
was is real on one level is revealed to be illusion on the
next. While on higher levels the Witness is illusion, it is
the gateway from the lower levels to those higher levels and
can't (usually) be bypassed.

I remember discussing this question with Jerry at one point
and that experience taught me that what seems difficult and
paradoxical to the mind becomes intuitively obvious after
one has experienced it. It was very useful to me to adopt a
"Don't Know" attitude towards these questions in order to
concentrate on the main task. The main task, as I saw it
then and as I see it now, is to stay grounded in awareness
as much as possible. This is done through meditation and
through other exercises in mindfulness throughout the day
and night. After a while this state of awareness, of
Witnessing if you will, starts to perpetuate itself, and it
seems that one is not DOING the meditation, the meditation
is the ground and source of everything else that is


In your advent posts you brought up the idea of "presence" and I
thought you would develop it further, after Christmas. Did I miss it,
or is it still a work in progress? You have been referring indirectly
to presence in your subsequent posts (I think) but I would like to see
it organized and spelled out.


Hello Larry...

What a surprise to receive your question. And what a question it is! No,
you have not missed anything *written*. I am not always sure about
writing here, as my orientation and ways of knowing don't always feel
like a 'match' with the assumed norm and understanding of Advaita. It
has actually taken personal courage for me to submit what I do, which
often appears either ignored or I sense, seen as a function of 'beliefs'
which one 'upon realization' eschews. The essential Truth in this Salon
allows me to burn away the dross. What remains is Presence.

In a partial answer to your question, I will say, that my participation
here, is a direct function of my relationship with Presence. It is a
working with Thought and Essence as it arises and emerges within the
expansion of Being knowing itself through me. I receive, interpret,
participate in creation and witness. I then do my best to surrender it
all and return to the altar of my Heart in fluid stillness. I know
myself as a particle within a current of Presence which I name Love or
Christ and I see no separtion from anyone here. The particle is

Along the way, certain 'teachings' have been useful companions for
observation. Esoteric Christian teachings have much to say about the
rhythm of the year, and how we can attune our awareness with same...
this moment and then ... this one... and then....

You ask me to organize and spell out what Presence is. I can only say
that Presence is the absence of organization and linguistic sculpting.
It is what we are when all such effort is laid down. Names may appear
which give some flavor.. Holy Spirit, Atman, Living One... but even
those have to be interpreted and the very act of interpretation causes a
ripple in Presence.

In conjunction with my Advent posts.. I have found this season to indeed
offer 'It came upon a midnight clear'. The twelve nights of Christmas
leading to Epiphany are Holy Nights. The 'Silent Nights' offer much to
the chalice of our souls when emptied. Practice of the Presence (or as
Gene describes 'abiding') is simply more vibrant.

I have found Rudolf Steiner's Calendar of the Soul a useful guide
through the rhythm of the year.

The verses are more like koans than poems requiring an attunement to a
different way of listening. The descriptions represent processes and
rhythms around us, and awakened us to processes and rhythms occuring
within our soul.

After expansion we are turned by the very different momentum of
intensification. This season is one of intensification or quickening of
the seeds planted deep within the fallowness.

39th week Dec 29-Jan 4
The Calendar of the Soul. Rudolf Steiner (translated from German)

"Surrendering to spirit revelation,
I gain the light of cosmic being;
The power of thinking, growing clearer,
Gains strength to give myself to me,
And quickening there frees itself
>From thinker's might my sense of Self."

later in January..

"The soul's creative might
Strives outward from the heart's own core.

The soul thus shapes itself
In human loving and in human working.

I have no idea if I've answered your question... but I love your


By this woundedness am I healed.
Precious wounding, the breaking of
the spheres of perfection.
Deep-seated wound - the ending of limitation
Is there horror and fear in here?
Is there hurt and pain in here?
It will out, it will out.
It shall breathe.
And in breathing it is done.
Projection injested and digested.
In breathing, I am done.
Out breath, in breath, no breath.
Sacred death of fire, death of no-death.
When all is done, no breathing left.
No performance to give.
The wounding, the incompleteness -
is All.
This original hurt, when I identified "me"
When body came to be --
This hurt is the universe.
When time stood still, the hurt dissolved
into the All it was, and is, all the time.

And All is Love.

***xan: ~ I attended a satsang with Amber recently.
She talked about "dancing around the wounds"
to avoid feeling that pain again; and instead,
stopping the dance to let the wound just be
present, and in that, healed.



Thanks for this, Xan. It's beautiful to hear this.
Your understanding of my words resonates so sweetly
as I'm hearing you.
This wounding is no-wound when seen as Love itself. It is
believing the woundedness to be other than Love itself that
is the basis for perceiving separation. Yes, there is pain,
hurt, grief, sorrow - and joy, giving, receiving, wonder, and awe -
in Love is distinction with no-distinction: perfection
within incompleteness, being within becoming, the limits
are no-limits - they are blown apart by Love from the very
beginningless beginning -- (for me, awareness of this woundedness
reconciles the apparent divisions that some have
found between the teachings of Qabala, Jesus and Buddha)
by this Wound I am Healed -- Sacred Love


...Now a new teacher has appeared. Can everyone post a short list of
their favorite Osho books?

Thank you

Love, neo


Thank God you found us and we found you, Neo. Go to Advanced
Book Exchange at

There are over 500 Rajneesh titles, all used and many at
good prices. Stick with books published before he was Osho,
in my opinion. The earlier the better. Here are some titles
I've read and which changed my life and which are available
quite cheaply:

The Psychology of the Esoteric
Meditation: The Art of Ecstasy
The Book of Secrets, any and all volumes
The Mustard Seed
When The Shoe Fits
The Flowers Showered
I Am The Gate

The Advanced Book Exchange is an amazing place. A person
could even gather a few hundred or so books and list them
here, thus starting a small business. It could be combined
with sales on e-Bay. Thanks to Bob Bays for telling us about
this A.B.E.




Hi, Joshua..

As I read your posts.. and I must confess that I haven't had the time or
energy to read all of them (intense volume may be counterindicated).. it
occurs to me that two rhythms are in operation.

There is an essential rhythmic truth which I receive *through* your
posts .. often in spite of your style. (Makes me wonder if Joshua is in
competition with his message). And there is the rhythm of your style
which has a kind of radical edge intent on stirring up the polenta. To
receive your message, I have to become transparent to your foreground
style which might only evoke my foreground conclusions.. and then we'd
be off and running in competition wouldn't we? There's been enough
evidence of that process here.

Another thought occured to me today.. relative to what is sometimes
referred to as our point of awareness as we ascend and/or descend the
metaphoric mountain of Is-ness.

It would appear that you are asking those who have mastery in the ascent
to join you in descending consciously. It appears that you are doing so
'on your terms'. It appears that you are asking those who have or are in
process of laying down identification, to reassemble said form in order
to study the momentum which forms it to begin with. It would appear that
you are striking one note in a community attuned to chords and the
instrumentality of your note can sound dissonant to the chord. What you
are demanding may not be authentic resonance at various stages in this
play. I enjoy your note much more when it plays with the chord...
[0] plays with [0]

Immersed as I am (like you) in an often intense work life,in a busy
city, I find your system offers some understanding to a turn in
orientation which I have begun as a result of an intensive with Gangaji
and the observation of criteria Gene is offering. I am more and more
being able to observe and distinguish the Essential momentum from the
filters which see something 'out there' to conclude and contract around
(what you call compete with).

When I become transparent to both of us, I have received glimpses of
what is communicating through you. What do you receive?

"Does `Compassion' have a tangible purpose?"
via, but not speaking for Kwan Yin

***xan posted:

Ashtavarka Gita


Even if you have nothing,

It is hard to find that contentment
Which comes from renunciation.

I accept nothing.
I reject nothing.

And I am happy.

The body trembles,

The tongue falters,
The mind is weary.

Forsaking them all,
I pursue my purpose happily.

Knowing I do nothing,

I do whatever comes my way,
And I am happy.

Bound to his body,

The seeker insists on striving
Or on sitting still.

But I no longer suppose
The body is mine,
Or is not mine.

And I am happy.

Sleeping, sitting, walking,

Nothing good or bad befalls me.

I sleep, I sit, I walk,
And I am happy.

Struggling or at rest,

Nothing is won or lost.

I have forsaken the joy of winning
And the sorrow of losing.

And I am happy.

For pleasures come and go.

How often I have watched their inconstancy!

But I have forsaken good and bad,
And now I am happy.

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