Jerry Katz
photography & writings

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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #215

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But our actual "real" world
is a highly competitive one! We
have no choice! What the Hell !!! :-)


~ We have the choice to not participate
as a personal identity.


"we" = personal identity
"we have" = personal identity
"choice" = personal identity
"not participating" = personal identity

I am wondering how such a choice is made and how it manifests itself.


We have the choice to not *know* ourselves as a personal identity.
We will always be forced to participate as one, for no matter what
our experience is of our selves, interaction can only take place
between individual beings.


~ I feel we are not forced to participate as personal identities
though others may perceive it as so. Interaction can take
place as a dance of energies rather than as identities.


Is the "not knowing" sufficient?
Or is there an enormous gap between
the "knowing" of no-self and the
"actuality" of the no-self state? Or
perhaps one needs a "mutation" to
(suddenly) *BE* in the no-self state?

That is why I am always intrigued
(and fascinated! :-)) by the story of
U.G. Krishnamurti's mutation? :-)

Are your statements contradictory?
<< We have the choice ... >> and
<< We will always be forced ... >> ?
Or you mean that one lives as if one
plays a role in a play?


~ I don't know U.G.K.'s mutation story, but according to
me there is 'awakening' and 'transformation'. Not knowing
is awake and the continued dissolving of mind habits is
transformation/deepening. Is that anything like what you mean?

I knew.
I saw I didn't know what I thought I knew.
I gave up knowing for not knowing
with great relief
Through not knowing
Now I know.



I send this poem in recognition of the clear signals given to me here. Glo


If you don't know the kind of person I am
and I don't know the kind of person you are
a pattern that others made may prevail in the
and following the wrong god home we may miss
our star.

For there is many a small betrayal in the mind,
a shrug that lets the fragile sequence break
sending with shouts the horrible errors of
storming out to play through the broken dike.

And as elephants parade holding each
elephant's tail,
but if one wanders the circus won't find the
I call it cruel and maybe the root of all cruelty
to know what occurs but not recognize the fact.

And so I appeal to a voice, to something
a remote important region in all who talk:
though we could fool each other, we should
consider —
lest the parade of our mutual life get lost in the

For it is important that awake people be awake,
or a breaking line may discourage them back to
the signals we give — yes or no, or maybe —
should be clear: the darkness around us is deep.

William Stafford


I would like to see warmth and compassion in all posts. Is this asking too much?


~ Apparently it is. If you are disappointed, look to your hopes,
expectations and rules for how others should behave.
It just programmed stuff no matter how good it sounds.
If you want to experience warmth and compassion it
is in you. If you want others to experience it, give it.


Is it necessary to have confrontation between egos to dissolve the ego?


~ I have noticed that the grace of Self does not limit itself
according to any terms or conditions we might set on it.
When it is time for us to awaken or deepen in awakening
anything at all might be used.

My question stands:

What I want to know is,
what do you want supported,
your identity or the dissolution of it?


Is it just me or have other people noticed that the list is more
compassionate with much fewer personal attacks?

Love, neo


Yes. As you spend time here, Neo, you'll discover the
community has a life of its own. It's organic. Pesticide


Much like a physical body,
the list goes through
dis-ease and superficially
aggressive behavior that
is actually its analog to
the body's immune system
in action. Nobody is
really being attacked,
instead the community is
being spontaneously,
naturally defended -- and
thereby healed.

***Gill posted:


The sun has entered me.
The sun has entered me together with the cloud and the river.
I myself have entered the river,
and I have entered the sun
with the cloud and the river.
There has not been a moment
when we do not interpenetrate.

But before the sun entered me,
the sun was in me-
also the cloud and the river.
Before I entered the river,
I was already in it.
There has not been a moment
when we have not *inter-been*.

Therefore you know
that as long as you continue to breathe
I continue to be in you.

~Thich Nhat Hanh

Allspirit website


We have the choice to not *know* ourselves as a personal identity.
We will always be forced to participate as one, for no matter what
our experience is of our selves, interaction can only take place
between individual beings.


If I don't know myself as a personal identity, then I don't
know "you" as a personal identity. Our interaction
doesn't occur between one entity and another at this point.
Our interaction is a blossoming in the Garden of Infinity,
a sacred flower. If I feel "forced" to participate
as an individual being interacting with another individual
being, I ask myself "from whence comes this forcing?"
I find that my projection of an individual being
outside myself is this "force". This feeling of "being forced"
then becomes the essential koan of the situation.
Resolution of this paradox leads to -- Love --
From here, this koan appears to be essential for
this world, as many interactions appear to occur
with the perception of "me" interacting with a separate "you"
resulting in unnecessary friction, defensiveness, offensiveness,


...this announcement is either
totally insensitive or totally surreal. I'm counting on it
being the latter. So here is the Limerick Contest Winner...

And the winner is...

Joshua Pritikin!

oops, wait a minute, he was the winner of Most Posts On
Competition in Nondual Forum, Pre-21st Century.

The winner of the NDS Limerick Contest, for his sheer
volume, enthusiasm, quality, humor, passion, and the fact
that he sent me a check for twenty bucks, the winner is our
very own Jan Barendrecht.

Jan will be sent an authentic Nonduality Salon t-shirt. I'd
send him a bootleg one, but they're far more expensive.

Thanks to all contributors: Andrew, Dan, Lynne, Bob, Bruce,
Gen, Greg, Larry, Liliana, Melody, Rainbo, Sarlo, Tim H.,
Tim G., and Xan. I'll eventually get around to putting some
of them on a web page or upload them to our files page.
There were many excellent, clever ones; everyone worked hard
on them, and I thank you for the many laughts and smiles
they brought.

With the heat of their passion quite high,
In the dark she had grabbed the K-Y,
But her burning desire,
Quickly set him on fire,
When she smeared that Ben-Gay on the guy.

--found on the net


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