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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #222

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I'd say that the opponents here are
fighting to open each others'
hearts. It has a certain beauty.

Joshua
________________________________________________________________________________\
____

Where there is truly
heartfelt understanding
thought will provide
rightful service
choicelessly, where the
heart is not so engaged
thought will serve only
it's own concocted ends.

Bruce
________________________________________________________________________________\
_____


Dan:
Hi Petros. Nice to have you back again. Here's how I see this:
Projection of an idea of divine energy onto a human body
makes the human form of the guru into the form of God incarnate.
~~~~~~~
Petros:
Rather, limitation of Divine Energy creates the appearance of "human body"
over (and obscuring) that which Only Ever Was God Incarnate. The Guru
restores the original Form of Infinity. This recognized, there is no more
Guru or Devotee.
~~~~~~
Dan:
This kind of projection differentiates one form as more divine than
another, and associates the Infinite with a particular finite creature.
Pharoes (you know, those Egyptian guys), Roman caesars,
various magicians, have all tried this trick.
It's not peculiar to gurus and their devotees.
~~~~~~~
Petros:
But unlike the Guru, caesars and Pharoahs did not ultimately obliterate the
distinction between themselves and their devotees, as the Guru does. (BTW,
notice how I am deliberately using the word Guru only in its singular
number.)
~~~~~~
Dan:
The devotee
wanting immolation and enlightenment - such seeking will
lead to endless attempts to project the desire onto someone,
and if that someone is helpful, he or she won't play the
role of divine object, but will turn the seeker to Self.
~~~~~~~
Petros:
Which is what the Guru does. Unless s/he's just "a" guru among gurus, such
as we have in abundance these days. Such are of no interest to the Devotee.

The Guru ends seeking, and ends the Devotee.
~~~~~~
Dan:
From here, it appears no devotee will be
"fully immolated" until no projection is needed, no form is taken
as a particular representation of Infinity, and no enlightenment is
sought.
~~~~~~~
Petros:
That's the bed-chamber; I've just been talking front porch till now.
~~~~~~
Dan:
Petros, I espouse the ideas that make sense to me, you espouse
the ideas that make sense to you, and life goes on. The Reality that
isn't captured by any of our ideas, Life itself, moves on.
It's very quick, so quick that it moves without motion, and doesn't
depend on anything that you or I say about It.
-- Love --
~~~~~~~
Petros:
Life slows down in order to make Love to Me!
________________________________________________________________________________\
_____

Dear Glo

Sometimes I wonder. There is so much mindspin here. The thoughts that
cause the separation. There are the few pearls but one has to dive
deep. Perhaps I am avoiding total aloneness.

I did not mean to insult, I meant it as a warning.

Love, neo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear neo,

Mindspin? The mind is spinning in an orbit around love. The energy spinning
it is driven by love. Listen under the words. The sound it makes spinning is
love. Even this "thought of separation" is happening in love. Can any
thought really separate truth from love? If there be no result, what is a
cause? Perhaps there is nothing to avoid and no way to avoid? Even when I
fall into nonexistence, I return bathed in love. Perhaps you are love?

With love, Glo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How would it be possible to avoid aloneness? The lives of many are
revolving around feelings and this is the cause for the majority of
thoughts; it can easily be verified. When perfectly satisfied with Self
alone, feelings are but distractions and one doesn't celebrate anything; I
stopped all celebration some 30 years ago but allowed visiting relatives to
do whatever they wanted. What can be added to Sat_Cit_Ananda? Both favors
and disfavors do not mean a thing anymore; that is aloneness :)

Jan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These are great words for me to be hearing
this morning.

My body is spinning me this morning. It's
like it's in a really bad mood, even though
I'm not aware of any 'thoughts' or 'events'
that have triggered such a reaction.

It may very well be those 'energy blocks'
Jan was talking about.

I do see how I have a choice here today.
In this state of 'aggravation' I could very
easily go off on a tangeant....find some
issue or person here in the phenonemal
world as 'target' for release of this energy

(which may be what you mean by 'avoiding' aloneness?)

and thus be focusing on 'separation'.

It would no doubt be a short term fix...
by expelling and projecting this energy
outward... a feeling momentarily of being
free of this body shaking.

Or I can keep it....keep looking at it....even
as it brings tears....and feels as if the body
will explode.....and ultimately *dive* deep
within it.

I wonder if this is anything like what you
meant when you wrote this, neo?

If not, thank you for letting me use your
thoughts as a springboard for expressing
my own.

Melody
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


A hint could be the arising of irritation; this always indicates a block for
the energy.
It means being aware and cautious.

Jan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A generalized feeling of irritation is arising this morning and last
evening. I'm aware of it. I'm watching it....noticing how my muscles
are constricting....noticing how much energy is being eaten up by it....
how my body has gone on "alert" status. I know that mental and
psychological tolerance is weakened considerably. Impatience follows.

Now what, Jan? :-)

Melody
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are so many possibilities I won't start listing them :) Man know
thyself is what counts.. The barrier of E-mail connection would turn this
into a kind of guessing game. When it comes to "life" observation and
prediction, it is much easier. I knew about a week ago, having to become a
mechanic in order to keep the scooter going and today there was a solid
reason or evidence :)

From another lighter side, going through a course of Reiki could also make
one aware of blocks. And at least, as a practitioner of Reiki one can earn
a living with the Shakti :) For a nondualist that is impossible :)

Jan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Melody, as a residence for mother Shakti myself, nothing
beats following my breath and allowing it all. If I start to feel
those signs of stress I realize I have been trying to contain
the energy. If instead I let it contain me and flow freely
there is relaxation.

As Jan said, giving the energy in some form of healing
is your opportunity.

By the way, Shakti seems to love sugar. If I let
her have it my body re-balances itself.


love
xan
________________________________________________________________________________\
_____

Dear skye,

I'm not sure I'm able to actually consult my voice much yet
but I do feel those degrees of earnestness. Perhaps the
times they seem
most urgent are something I've listened to before and they
finally hit
really hard and say "it's time". I think with the outcomes I
still have a
"fall where they may" yet know they fall in the place where
they were
supposed to.

Love,
Cyndy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi cyndy,

The inner senses are much more unified than the outer senses
(as we know them). Operating as a whole they function
together more smoothly than the outer senses, nevertheless
one still needs to learn discrimination and discretion in
their use both on our plane and beyond. Naturally they are
to be used to assist and not to be psychic peeping toms.
They are concerned with innate knowledge of the universe. It
takes practice to tell one from the other. They inevitably
lead to an expansion of experience, greater understanding
and compassion. If one is not ready to utilize them
properly ones own personality will see to it that they are
not used consciously at all, but the whole self will
continue to use them constantly.

One of these senses (though their division is an illusion)
involves direct cognition of a concept in much more than
intellectual terms. Baring in mind that one cannot truly
understand or appreciate any living thing unless one can
become that thing, then one can also become an idea, inside
it looking out, not at it. Until one uses the inner senses
in this manner one only receives a glimmering of a concept
no matter how simple. Similarly there is an inner sense
that can penetrate the capsule that encloses the self of all
entities.

This is too difficult to word.

much love
skye
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


~ Listening in on this thread, I see that insight and intuition are natural
but have been covered over by the mind's programming. My own experience is
that as I see and see through that to my original and eternal wholeness,
intuition and other natural gifts follow.

xan

________________________________________________________________________________\
_____


Greg,

That was fine no muddy waters. :) I want to tell you all this story
Maybe someone can direct me in a suitable direction. I have been on drugs
all my life since the age of 12. Im 47 now, being clean off drugs for about
4 years. But I feel like a child. And I don't really know how to proceed in
life. But I am Happy.
I have had great feelings with Kundalini. I began opening the micro cosmic
orbit as referred to by Mantak Chai. I have gotten off that method and have
concentrated on opening the heart chakra mainly. When I put my attention
there I imagine it opening the size of a house or too the sky. This is done
with the feeling of love and awe for God and the energy around me in the
atmosphere.
I began to see or feel the wheel of the heart turning within and out side of
me. With incredible surges of bliss, orgasmic like waves going though me
which I could Harley handle. My body would tense up as the waves would flow
though my body. I then brought that bliss down to my sex organs and imagined
that place opening very wide also. Bring the wave around to the base of my
spine I began to have an inner orgasm. I felt pumping within my body as I
tried to direct the bliss upward to my head.
This was the most amazing experience I have had so far with Kundalini. I
thought I would ejaculate physically but the energy went in the direction I
was hoping, went to my head and down again into the heart and finally into my
stomach. When I closed my eyes afterward to relax to ponder what had just
happened I saw in the blackness green waves flowing very slowly in front of
my closed eyes.

These experiences are wonderful but I don't know what to do with them. I
have read some books by muktananda and have heard about the blue pearl. But I
still can't see how all that will lead me to enlightenment. It seems to take
my mind off the teaching of Ramesh/Ram Tzu. I wish I knew what the heck I
was doing or could get real help in these matters. Anyone out there have a
idea on the course I might take I would be appreciate your suggestions. I
live in Jersey. I remember reading in the bible about having no false God or
other gods before me. Possibly not to cause confusion as it might have done
with me? I love Ramesh and his teaching but of course I also love the Bliss
I can feel when Opening the chakras. Can the two be combined? Should I try
to combine? All mixed up. I haven't done anymore with Kundalini since I
felt I had a better understanding of Ramesh's teaching.

Love Dan (Lovecode)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dan (Lovecode),

Thank you for sharing your story here. I'm glad you've been clean from
drugs after about 33 years. Did you know that Ram Tzu had a similar
experience, on drugs for about 16 years? And most of all, congratulations
on being happy!

Kundalini and non-dualism.... It's almost two separate topics. We have
several very informed people on NDS about Kundalini, if you want to pursue
that further. As for the Understanding that Ramesh talks about, all
experiences are arisings in Consciousness. They come, they stay for a
while, and they go. No matter what the experience, gross, subtle or
spiritual, Kundalini or a car crash, it comes and goes, does not last. The
consciousness in which the experience arises is what is lasting, unbroken,
partless and continuous. Since it is clear that the experiences happen to
"you," You are that consciousness, one and the same. You are present
before, during and after any given experience, and even without
experiences. Nisargadatta said that "I am that which survives the
dissolution of universes." You are present, not as Dan, but as
consciousness. In fact, Dan is one of the things that arise in
consciousness. You can experience the coming and going of Dan around deep
sleep states, swoons, samadhi's, gaps between thoughts, etc. Things don't
happen to Dan - rather, Dan is one of the happenings.

So for the jnana marga, i.e., the non-doing path of Ramesh and Ram Tzu,
Kundalini is just another experience. A great and blissful one to be sure.
But there is suffering when the bliss ends, or when the next bliss fails
to arise when expected, or when pondering over the general fact that bliss
doesn't last forever and alternates with pain or regular life. I've talked
to some people who prefer to take a shot a prolonging the bliss rather than
try for non-dual realization or enlightenment. Most will keep at their
practice until they are tired or disenchanted. *Then* when they turn to
the jnana marga, things move very very quickly. They come to understand
very quickly that happiness is not found in objects that arise and fall,
but is rather What you are. Then, the suffering never arises again,
because there is no more scorekeeping or calculating about how well things
are going for a "me."

And this doesn't mean that you must give up Kundalini practices! You can
do anything, yoga, exercise, music, dancing, but it will happen without any
expectations of ultimate spiritual results - it will be seen that there is
no one there to whom the benefits accrue!

In formal advaita vedanta, it is taught that the true purpose of spiritual,
psychic, miraculous and Kundalini experiences is to demonstrate to the
student by disidentification with ever more subtle layers that:

1. they are not the physical body
2. they are not the etheric body
3. they are not the emotional body
4. they are not the intellectual body
5. they are not the body of bliss

But rather, the student is That in which these things rise and fall. When
this is deeply understood, there will be no more identification with the
layers (e.g., "I'm the feeler of bliss!"), and happiness and fulfillment
will no longer be sought in any of these transitory things.

With love,

--Greg
________________________________________________________________________________\
_____

Dan: ripple, ripple - these ripples are my karmic awareness expressing.

Terry, you speak articulately, present a thoughtful and insightful
picture of truth, and draw useful illustrations from Zen stories.
Thank you for providing such immensely useful "grist for the mill".
I find that you have herein looked into a difficult topic, have
provided useful dialogue, and have pointed to Transcendent Truth
as Love. Blessings. Much of what you have said rings true here,
although I don't see it exactly the same. Let me present my
reaction:

The reality of love as more powerful and complete than
any book of rules about reality, any conceptualization of
good and bad, rings quite true. To say that the relative
world is fully about, and fully supportive of spiritual
learning also chimes with a tune ringing true to these ears.
Those who are aware of interdependent origination see the
all-at-onceness of phenomena, beyond the categories
of cause and effect. This recognition is viewed as on-target
here.

When you expound that only enlightenment is,
no one exists to be bound by karma, people torment themselves simply
with their own self-evaluations, and all are free to do as they will -
I find this argument less than fully convincing; also I'm aware
that such words are easily misinterpreted and used as
rationalizations, and may be taken as support for a
lassiez-faire anything-goes approach in which discrimination
is believed to be unimportant (an amoral rather than transcendent
approach, sometimes referred to as "antinomianism"). I don't think
this is what you were driving at, yet I do think a bit more might
be said.

Samsara is nirvana, phenomenal
reality is numenal reality when viewed without obscuration. In
the phenomenal world are life experiences that are effected
by perceptions of events. Events send out ripples in time.
Time is timeless, the ripples occur without moving (no-thingness
is always the case, yet the ripples are experienced) - although
all ripples are one ripple, the ripples interact, and the patterns
of their interaction affect their becoming. This patterning
effect of interacting ripples is karma. Although no entities exist
to "suffer from karma", the perception of entities does exist,
and suffering is real from this perception. Whatever rippling
effect can be used to "unknot the knotted ripples" is loving.
Thus, enlightened actions need to take into account the
perception as experienced, and not impose a value-free
stance when dealing with the experience of "knotted rippling"
i.e., "ripples involved in self-contradiction".
Compassion, from here, is not a value-free amoral stance,
nor is it unmindful of the way that repercussions to actions
are experienced as occurring - thus, rather than a person who
is free from karma, enlightement is transcendent recognition
of the nature of the entire field - including awareness that the
"contracted patterns of ripples" are not other than who one is.

What I am endeavoring to say, and words don't easily accomodate
me, is that love doesn't demolish karma nor escape karma, it
transcends it by fully encompassing it. This, from here, is
why karma cannot be obscured (or ignored) by enlightenment.
It can't be obscured because to ignore it is to ignore compassionate
participation in phenomenal reality with recognition of
phenomenal reality as noumenal - as who one is. Enlightenment
cannot be unregulated participation because it views
all apparent others as not truly or ultimately other. It cannot
ignore karma, although I see myself as resonating with you when
seeing that by encompassing all of karma, awareness is free of karma
and beyond karma.

"As you do to the least
of these, you have done to me," said Jesus. As seen from here,
love includes all of karma, all of the ripples, and that is why
it can only act compassionately in the phenomenal realm, at the
same time that it *is* fully the noumenal realm. You
alluded to this when you said the enlightened can do what they
want, but they don't because they love. This saying suggests
that enlightenment sees the realm of differences as
not other than enlightenment itself, and one's participation is guided
by the relative realities one sees as well as the ultimate reality
one is. *To say this more simply, I am aware that if I do this it will
hurt you, so I don't do it*. That awareness is simultaneous awareness
of karma and no-karma, of duality and the nonduality that
transcends and encompasses all of duality. It is awareness,
simultaneously, of cause and effect and causeless Infinity.

Transcendence, in the view presented here, isn't the ending of
thought, discrimination, time, or awareness of events having
consequences. It is the ending of any identification with temporal
realities, and the nondependence on thought for one's sense of
"true" reality and identity. Events can still be viewed in terms
of consequences, one can view from a position in time, at the same
instant that eternity is seen, that the beginning is in the end,
that all is one seamless Whole.

This then is the ending of any perceived
separation between timelessness and time, of the transcendent and
the relative. It is love "operating" to bring itself to itself
within itself, to help itself to remember itself, to use rememberance
to act in the realm of "forgottenness", and to see that the
entire realm of "forgottenness" is not other than oneself, and is
the result of one's own actions to and within oneself. Karma is
interactive, is not the result of one person's seeing, is impossible
to avoid in the "realm of interaction".

If there were not awareness of karma, the enlightened would, without
any discrimination about repercussions, do whatever they felt like
doing - and I agree with you, "they" don't do this. Without
awareness of karma, they wouldn't care about
any apparent beings being hurt (or any apparent beings learning
anything either) because they would see no existing beings. So,
why do they teach, and why do they interact compassionately? Because
they see karma, at the same time they see no entities suffering
from karma.

Transcendence is to see that from the first not a thing is, and yet,
simultaneously see that "this is". To see that there is no cause
and effect, and simultaneously, actions have repercussions.
There is no "me", yet the perception of a "me" is real to "him"
and to "her," and how they see "me" behave (and experience "me"
to behave, will affect "him" or "her"). This is true even
though there is no "him" or "her". All is perception, there is
no perceiver and no perceived object, and love functions in this
perception with awareness of the ripple-effect of actions.
My inferred conclusion as I read your perceptive and thoughtful
writing is that sometimes the actions of one who is aware may
appear paradoxical, yet the reason for the paradox is that the
love expressed is transcendent of norms, not confined by norms,
but comes from recognition of the entirety of karma as a whole,
from being the entire pond, all of the ripples, and yet expressing
simultaneously as a particular ripple interacting with other
particular ripples. There's no way around it: how this can occur
is a great mystery! It transcends logic without destroying logic,
just as it transcends karma without destroying karma. Karma and logic
are the same thing: awareness of cause and effect perspectives.
Karma and logic continue to function, are used when their
framework is useful, and simultaneously are seen in no way to define
the nature of "ultimate reality".

-- Love --
Dan

________________________________________________________________________________\
_____


Hello everybody. As some of us know, Judi's bundt pans are a 'hot' item. First,
there
was only
a picture of the pans on her homepage, then there was an 'electric' version. In
addition, I have
constructed a Flash animation about the bundt pans. Enlightenment guaranteed
within
seconds!
Of course, it won't last very long, since it is an 'artificial' enlightenment
:-)

You can find the test-version at this link:
http://home-2.worldonline.nl/~noclaim/machine.html

To make it work you need the Flash-plugin installed in your browser. In case
you don't
have it,
the page will show you how to install it (will only take a few minutes)

P.S: don't forget to click on the button to start the animation, once you're on
the
page!

enjoy!
Dutch

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