Jerry Katz
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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #267

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Bob Continues "Attention" Thread With
a Musical Note:

If you strum a string on a musical
instrument other strings will vibrate
in sympathetic vibration. Strumming is
attention and humans love to see
what vibrates. Just strum the one
string Shushuma.

Same "Attention" Thread, Andrew And
Marcia Know That They Don't Know:

I don't know either, thank goodness, knowing would be rather dull and
dead. I'm interested in questions, that's where the action is!

Awareness is all. Attention is focused awareness, one-pointed awareness.
As an individual, I am one-pointed awareness, attention. As All, I am
ubiquitous awareness.

In a piece Christiana reposted a couple of days ago, Gene spoke of a
cone, with I AM at the broad end and ego, individual at the apex, I see
attention as equivalent to the individual ego, and I AM as
undifferentiated awareness. Attention is formed when awareness moves
within itself, it is inquiry, not-knowing that forms attention out of
awareness, that forms the individual me. In the quote that started this

Ramana Maharshi said; "The Gnani (the Enlightened) continually enjoys
uninterrupted, transcendental experience, keeping his inner attention
always on the Source..." He is speaking of self inquiry; the attention,
individual, the focused awareness turning back upon itself to
undifferentiated awareness. As if the point of the cone inverted back to
touch the base. (The cone is just an aid to visualisation, I don't
actually think I'm a cone:)

I'm not sure how I'd put it in terms of the 3 forces you mention, I
guess it seems to me that attention is active, looking for
reconciliation, while the ground, universal awareness is passive, the
active rises out of the passive ground and falls back into it.

How about pure awareness as the reconciling force, our neurological
system as passive or receptive and individual experience as active? So
as I abide in pure awareness then I "see" the flow through my
neurological receptors and "see" it actively (cause I am awake in pure
awareness rather than asleep) transformed into individual experience or
"I". I digest it in other words. That is the how of the fueling process.

Are you putting our physical bodies on a par with awareness? Or do you
mean something more than the physical neurological system? The physical
body is a temporary phenomenon, an experience, isn't it?

Abiding in pure awareness I disappear, melt away, the active I reunited
and consumed in the passive unmoving awareness. Life is this continuous
process of rising from passive awareness and falling back again.
Continuous rising and continuous falling back. I call it continuous but
it's not in time.

I think perhaps we're talking at cross purposes, I don't understand
about the fueling process, fueling what?

Passive awareness is sleep. You don't understand the fueling because you
don't understand what it is that needs to be fueled or to stay active.
Impressions either generated from within or coming from without all land
in our physical neurological system. They get digested or translated
into experience in our consciousness. If your consciousness is passive
then you identify with the continuous rising and falling back. That is

If your consciousness is active to the translation then you are a party
to your own creation moment by moment. It is a three part dynamic which
results in Being. You are describing a two part dynamic. It is still
three part but you are passive in the reconciling force and don't see
it. If the reconciling force is active then you have a nondual
situation. You are actively translating. The "nondual living observer"
as I quote Gene as saying. :-) The body is key.

But the body IS an impression. This reconciling you posit in the
physical neurological system when the physical neurological system is
itself an impression no different from any other impression.
I don't think you can place the reconciling in the physical body, I
think you must introduce individual nonphysical mind as the reconciler.
I don't see a need for a reconciling force, the individual is
impermanent, falls back continually into the all. Think of the
individual as wave rather than particle. Why complicate things? Aren't
you proposing some force external to All?

I equate individual mind with attention, that's where I started in this
thread. When there is no attention (in coma or dreamless sleep) there is
no individual. Individual mind is the way awareness appears to itself
when it is active. The reconciling force doesn't appear in my
experience. Apart from logical debate, examining personal experience, I
don't see it.

I am and I am me... what needs reconciling?

I am still "just talking." :-)

Consciousness is where the reconciliation takes place not the
neurological system.

Surely you are not equating consciousness with the physical body?
Individual mind is passive consciousness. Individual mind is subjective
experience or active force. Mind or active consciousness is reconciling
force. Your subjective experience has already been translated by a
passive consciousness. Mind is an active reconciling force.

Can't you see that I Am and I Am me is the dual position? Consciousness
reconciles the I Am and the I Am me. A passive consciousness sees no

Marcia (later):
We should most likely just drop this. The difficulty is that even though
there are three forces we can be either awake (active) or asleep
(passive) in each of them. Attention makes the difference. But I think
it can be a diversion to "talk about" it. Better to just look for it
inside oneself and verify it directly one way or the other.


Saloon/Surrender/S Thread Continues:

P asks Tony:
From your message , it seems that you're one who has surrendered, or
surrender has happened :). If I may ask, how long has it been like this.
Have there been periods in between when you doubted the surrender or
"method" of surrender?

Tony answers:-
I am not totally surrendered. It is an ongoing practice. I am still
holding on to the corner of the envelope so to speak. Like us all! If I
was totally surrendered there would be no 'I', to write on here.
Realised people don't write, usually.
I kind of look at it this way. There is thought and and then there is
the 'energy feeling'. If one lets the thought go without connecting it
to the energy and expanding it. Then the thought will dissipate by
That's my experience anyway. Kind of like a computer program to watch. I
suppose no thoughts belong to us anyway.
I continually have to surrender the fruits of action for some of the
karma happening to me is active and could be emotional. However I am
aware it already written and I am but an actor on the scene.

++Glo Realizes A Red Flag When Tony Says, "Realized people don't write,

Well, I offered to follow Jerry around taking notes, but out of kindness
to me and my family, he promised to write once in a while all by
himself. Tony, this seems another expectation that belongs in the
trashcan. I mean Ramana was perfectly realised, and also aware that his
spoken comments were being written down in notes, where do you think the
book of his Talks came from? Sometimes he would even read! Just to
expound on the meanings of various written sutras and stuff.

Perhaps at a time when "everyday, ordinary people" are becoming
awakened, more ordinary stuff like actually writing for oneself might be
standard operating procedure? I am very leery of "rules" about this. If
the "I" has to so totally disappear as to do nothing literally, who
would eat or take walks even? There is a difference between attachment
thru identification and being like in a coma!! Good heavens!

Jodyjr (Responding to Tony):
Your expectation of the complete and permanent dissolution of the 'I'
sense is an expectation that will not be met. Such comes only in
Nirvakalpa Samadhi, and that state is not permanent.

T: Yes but total sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi or jivanmukti is. The 'I',
will totally dissolve or the little i anyway.

J: No. The sense of 'I' remains with the body as it is a component of
the mind. As long as the body exists, the sense of individual being
remains. It is the exclusive *attachment* to the sense of 'I', the idea
of 'me', which dissolves permanently upon realization.

Jodyjr (continuing):
Also, realized people do write.

T: Please indicate which realised persons that sat and wrote their own
books, not many,perhaps some.

J: Swami Vivekananda.

Jodyjr: (continuing) I know of at least three regular posters to this
list who are realized.

T: I see no evidence of anybody on here that is 'realised' at all.
Perhaps this is the problem here, people think they are.

J: No, you just don't have eyes to see it yet.

Jodyjr (continuing:)
Basically the only difference between the realized and not is minute.
It's just about knowing, directly and experientially, who we really are.
When we do know, we find that how we knew ourselves before doesn't go
away, it's just seen for what it is.

Expectations about realization are the biggest hindrances to It's
manifestation in our lives. I promise you, no matter how well you know
Vedanta, no matter how much Sanskrit you can read, neither will provide
an adequate picture of what realization is like experientially. By
holding on to this or that expectation, you are preventing realization
from occurring. It will never be something the mind can anticipate in
terms that the mind understands. And until the mind is exposed to It
directly and experientially, the mind cannot and will not know It.

+++Editor's Note: New NDS Math: 1 poster says there are 3 realized
people who regularly post on NDS list, and 46 people who regularly post
say to themselves, "Well, I am 1 of them, now who are the other 2?"


Larry Offers Mahamudra No. 5

Its Undistracted State Is Shown to Be Meditation on Mahamudra

Having discovered the intrinsic nature of ordinary mind, the meditator
remains aware of it without getting distracted, and at the same time
maintains unmodulated whatever immediate mode of mind or thought arises.
This is described as the meditation. Je Gampopa describes:

This undistracted state of ordinary mind is the meditation. One
will understand it in due course.

If in order to meditate, the meditator retracts from maintaining the
mind's natural state through being mindful of its identity, and alters
it or adds a new element, he will be contradicting the meaning of
unmodulated mind. It cannot be meditation on this level. In any case, he
must not allow himself to be distracted - not even for a moment - by his
deluded awareness with its ingrained clinging to duality. Affirming the
practice by which to attune oneself to the mind's natural naked state,
the Sangwa Dutsi Gyalpoi Gyu states:

Neither by meditation nor nonmeditation can one discover the
[mind's] intrinsic emptiness and luminous clarity; meditation itself
involves discrimination and nonmeditation consists of discursive
thought. There is really nothing to meditate on, not even a particle,
and nothing to distract one, not even for a moment.
Savari says:

Do not view anything as being faulty; Perceive everything to be
nonbeing; Avoid craving after inner warmth for the sign of progress; A
nonmeditational state has been revealed, Even so, do not fall through
laziness and indifference. Meditate regularly with mindfulness.
The Gamdon Drubpa clarifies how one meditates on the naturalness and
simplicity of ordinary mind:

Do not contemplate anything while meditating; this process is
designated as meditation.

Even as the reflective consciousness perceives the mind's quiescent
emptiness, ecstasy, streaming thoughts, or diverse appearances, the
meditator should neither cling to nor have concern for any of these
experiences. He should instead know the intrinsic identity of each and
maintain that awareness in a relaxed manner without modulation and
distraction. The meditation that requires the mind to quiet itself into
a nondiscriminating state by first retracting outflowing thoughts or
stopping emerging appearances is described by Je Tsangpa Gyare as being
"meditation like a hook," because the vibration of this meditation is
rather limited.


Skye Lightens the List Load:

three women were about to get the firing squad... a brunette, a redhead,
and a blonde. Just as the brunette heard "ready, aim....", she yelled
"Tornado" and everyone turned around looking and she escaped. Next.. the
redhead... Again "ready.. aim..." and she yelled "Earthquake" and
everyone looked around and she escaped. Last...the blonde. They said,
"Ready, Aim..." and she yelled "FIRE"...

yeah yeah, i know, we've had enough already :-)))

Xan and Roger Fool Around With That NDS Math Again:

There are only 2 things to do in awakening: Give attention to silent
eternal awareness/beingness. See each pattern of false identity and let

Xan says "only two things":
"seeing the false and letting go" does not appear to be the only way.
For example, the 'false identity' can melt away in the expansive feeling
of love.

Or, if one has innate skill with energetics (laya/kundalini
yoga) the rising of subtle energy can terminate the 'false identity'.

Neither of these approaches requires 'seeing the false' in
the traditional 'neti-neti' or 'not this - not this' fashion.

Also, there are many tantric sutras, one like: "On seeing
the face (or keystrokes!?) of a long absent friend, permeate this joy".
I think of many people here when I say "on seeing the keystrokes of an
absent friend" !!

IMHO "seeing the false" only works for a fraction of the
people, others don't have the innate skill at that approach and are
better off using one of the other equally valid approaches.

You are right, of course.
There are many ways that the web of self-delusion gets
undone. I revise my "2 things".
The first stands as it is.
The other becomes, the undoing of false identity.


Big Bad Wolf Gene Poole Tries To Get Us To Use Stuff The Better To See
and Hear Us, M'Dear

Hello everyone,

As you can see, I have a new email address. Please update your files to
reflect this change.

Upon my return from the now-legendary meeting of the _Fabulous Four_ in
California, I entered into a zone of extreme TechnoTurblence; I have
emerged, with several changes for the better. This includes a new ISP,
fast ADSL, a new hard-drive (and soon to add 20GB more), updated and
improved system software, and overall, a smoother and more powerful

Somehow, this reflects the upgrading that I experienced while communing
i; I am happy and grateful for all
Although I have not been actively contributing to NDS, I have been
reading when I have had the time to do so. I have also been in chat a
few times. My thanks to all for the wonderful spirit of community which
is so remarkably present here.
While my time is still at a premium, I do plan on staying deeply
involved with this online community.

In line with this, I offer this concept: Realtime online video/audio
conferencing for NDSers.

Below, you will find the URL for download of the _FREE_ (beta) software
which makes this possible. If you have a PC or a Mac, an internet
connection, and a keyboard, you are included!
Remember, you do not have to have a camera to make this
software work for you! You can actually _lurk_ unseen, or even paste a
picture into the 'video' window in lieu of a camera-generated image.

Please go to this site:
Please read on...
The iVisit software, when installed, allows simultaneous VIDEO, AUDIO,
and TYPED chat.

If you have the iVisit software, you can SEE and HEAR those who are
participating; you can join in on any level that you wish...
* Watch and listen, while typing in chat;
* Talk to others, if you have a microphone;
* Let others see you and your environment, if you have a videocamera.

The iVisit application is a FREE download; and, unlike other similar
programs, it will usually penetrate proxies. This makes it easy to use
via cable or DSL modems.

iVisit also works without a 'reflector' or central server. This means
that each user is actually a standalone/autonomous node; there is little
to go wrong with this kind of communication system.

If you do download the iVisit software, please read the support files.
You will find it a remarkably easy-to-learn and simple to configure

There are several inexpensive 'QuickCams' or 'Webcams' on the market at
this time; please explore the possibility of obtaining one. I bought the
Kensington (color, VGA resolution) quickcam for $70USD at CompUSA. This
small device (USB for Mac or PC) delivers excellent performance.

If you are considering purchasing a quickcam, make yourself aware of
which connection protocol your system requires; serial or parallel or
USB (PC) or serial or USB (Mac). Quickcam prices are very competitive
these days; I have seen a Connectix PC cam going online for under

iVisit allows the use of any video input source (VCR, videocamera, etc),
if you can figure out how to adapt it to your computer.

Please write to me _directly_ if you need any help with this setup. We
do not have to use the NDS as a technical forum. It is my desire to get
this A/V conferencing happening; Online A/V Satsang, here we come!

* When you get the software and try it out, you will see how simple it
is. It may be necessary to go to SETTINGS and modify something to
optimize performance; please be patient and just experiment until it
works tolerably. We can all _fine-tune_ each-other as we connect (just
like here, eh?)

* If you do get online with the iVisit application, please look in the
ROOMS for a room labeled
'Gene's'. If you see it, I am online and waiting to connect with you.
Because the ROOMS are freely accessible PUBLIC AREAS, (as is the MAIN
LOBBY), I may have to institute a PASSWORD. Our password will be _magus_
(all lower case, no underscores). That will allow me to dwell
undisturbed by the usual crowd of online whackos which inevitably find
and disrupt any online chat venue.

* If you see a padlock icon on the room 'Gene's', the password is: magus

If you do not see a room created by me,
feel free to cruise around in any of the public areas. Be aware that
there is an ADULT area (password protected) which is the playground of
X-rated types!
We can arrange for iVisit meeting times via NDS chat, or by email. I
hope this works for enough of us, that it can become as easy and regular
as our present typed NDS chat!
Thank you for your time. I hope to be SEEING you online soon!
==Gene Poole==



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