Jerry Katz
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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #298

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Highlights of Friday

> A person doesn't HAVE to do
anything. It's not necessary
> to stop doing all the above things
unless a person wants
> to stop. All these things can happen
with a full
> appreciation that all there is is
now. Life doesn't need
> to stop or slow down for a person to
just be... does it?
> Whatever,
> Love Annie

Hi Annie,

I agree that a person doesn't HAVE to do anything. But for
many it's a great challenge to 'just be' while being
involved in life. I'm thinking of Joshua Pritikin's
competition studies. He was an extreme-poster here for
awhile. He writes on his website

The Four Origins of Awareness

The 0th person perspective:
I salute that which is revealed when thought ceases.

The 1st person perspective:
I salute myself.

The 2nd person perspective:
I salute you.

The 3rd person perspective:
I salute our predicament.

Everything else, the great illusion, I do not salute.


As I see it, many have been brought up to salute the great
illusion, and if one's not careful, the above perspectives
can be part of the great illusion. Maybe any perspective at
all is part of the great illusion.

double whatever,

Marcia: I wasn't pointing at you. It was a compliment if anything.
>What I find interesting is all the talk about how we are
>nothing and then everything gets taken personally. From
>my perspective this *was* a light hearted discussion.
>It only goes to show how much personality gets in the
>way of talking about anything. Personality means
>taking it personally.

D: Agreed, Marcia - a useful observation.
Also - personality can mean deciding one will make an effort not
to "take it personally", so one will "stuff" reactions, while the reality
is that one *is* reacting personally, just not showing it. To
be beyond personality is not the result of a decision that
it's better not to react, but a choiceless awareness
simply not in a place of personal reactivity. Awareness is flexible,
not rigid, is spontaneous, not stuffing reactions.

Viewed one way, "personally", everything is referenced
automatically to *me*, to what I like and don't like. A permanent
point of reference is assumed, and events and experiences are thus
interpreted and associated. Viewed the other way, beyond personality,
no reference point is there. When it is seen that no reference point
is *really* there,
no "self" is projected, and inferences and associations simply
won't occur the same way. A person is free to like one thing,
dislike another thing. Someone viewing that person as "other" will
be able to say that person has a personality, because there will
be a certain tone of voice, look, ways of doing things. However,
in terms of awareness, awareness isn't stuck "there" - there's
no awareness assumed to be "inside" that person "by" anyone.
So, freedom from personality is not a personal achievement of
a particular person. It's the inherent nature of awareness itself,
as it is, this moment, free of any dwelling within any personal
being or body. The attempt to assume a centrally located entity
is the basis for "duality" -- when it is seen this attempt is futile,
there is no central reference point anywhere, and the essential
"nonduality" of "everything" is seen, effortlessly, "be-ingly,"
because trying to maintain a center and an internal private
entity is what takes effort. Nothing begins or ends,
everything refers to everything else, infinity is now, here :-)

Melody had written:
> permission to simply say, "This or
> that person's full of shit" without
> feeling I need to 'fix' that feeling by
> trying to become friends with them
> or something, or to convert them
> to my point of view.

Marcia replied:

I think the real issue is this idea of point of view.
My point of view is in constant flux. But at any particular
moment that I am in a particular point of view I will feel
unified and whole. I am buffered from seeing that five
minutes before I, myself, felt just the opposite. We expect
others to be more conscious than we are willing to be or
are ourselves.

We think that we are unified and just having different feelings
and thoughts. The truth is that each feeling and thought and
point of view is a self. And there is nobody home. Nobody
in charge. And boy, oh boy, if we put one point of view out
there, then we feel as if we have to defend it. That is the whole
idea of being nothing or no one thing. Points of view are just
moments in time. *You* have no point of view. Points of view
are limitations. Nice for the moment but don't stake your identity
on it. i.e. don't become identified.

Larry sent:
>"A person is not earth, not water, nor fire, nor wind, not space, not
>consciousness. Nor is he or she all of them. Yet what person is there
>separate from these? And just as a person is not perfectly solid because
>he or she is what can be labeled on the collection of these six
>constituents, likewise none of the constituents are perfectly solid
>because each is what can be labeled on a collection of parts."

There is movement, but only because there is the nonmoving.
There is nonmovement, but only because there is the moving.

Movement happens, but nothing is moving.
Any attempt to define what it is that is moving
requires separating movement from something that moves;
When observed closely, this is only possible
intellectually, not in reality.
In reality, what moves is movement, and only in
contrast to the nonmoving, with which it arises.
In terms of persons, there is no "something" moving
through a life that can be called a person -
as there is no static something or separable entity
being moved by the movement of life. Neither is there
not a person, for there *is* the movement that is life.

Any element can be analyzed in terms of other elements,
ad infinitum. Ultimately, therefore, there are no elements.
However, there is "something," for there is life, there is
perception. It's just ultimately not analyzable in terms
of parts, elements, beings, or categories.

Marcia queried Hans:

>Question: Big relief or big excuse?
H: As far as my understanding reaches, it could be both. I am just watching all
my excuses and reliefs and i'm doing nothing about them. This could also be
an excuse :)

>Second Question: Is the meaning and purpose of life to feel good?
H: Who knows (every meaning and/or purpose is an invention of ourselves ?), but
is sure feels good to feel good :) Seriously, what can be wrong with feeling
good ? Given the choice of being asleep (not awakened) and feeling good or
being alseep and feeling bad, what would be your choice :) Ok, I admit that
feeling bad might be a good excuse to get on the path to awakening !

Feeling good and relieved


I found this goodness in Sharon's post to Christiana. All I
did was edit out, or see beyond, the personal bitterness:

"Look deeper.. I see Titanic written on the bow... just go
down with the ship.. no survivors.. no schmoozing ... hey
don't include me in your romantic notion .. mind coloring..
love song thingie ..Ever listen to any Frank Zappa?? I know
he 's dead and all.. but he has.. oops.. had a great way
with tone and word..although I don't think he wrote the
words "I sold my heart to the junkman .. yeah" which touched
me deeply." --Sharon

Minus the attack on Christiana, this brings me joy for some
reason. We're all damsels in distress.

Jerry ~~~~~

Jerry later:

Quoting a segment of Sharon's offensive spiel to Christiana
may or may not have been popular. I can't come to the
computer every day if I can't be free to explore the edges.

I hate what Sharon sent. It was stupid. But, to me, there
was something of value within it, and it's something that
relates to everyone.

We've had lengthy discussions on Alice Bailey's anti-Semitic
posturings (I'm not comparing her to Sharon) and then spoken
well of her. I've seen incredibly dumb and possibly (but not
definitely) illegal things done on this list, and not banned
anyone (not for long, anyway).

There's one person sometimes here who doesn't even remember.
He flamed the hell out of me more than once on Usenet when I
first came onto the Internet.

When a year later that person sent a gracious and kind note
to a Mr. Katz because I had a pretty interesting website and
he wanted in, I laughed and gave it to him. That person has
been quoted so much, I can't even begin to tell you.

And I was flamed a thousand times worse than anything Sharon
ever did to Christiana and I had no support system on the
Internet. But we've come a long way. And I attribute it to
seeing the genius in people and allowing it to speak, no
matter what they do that might belie it. That's something
we all do for each other, and, really, no one is excluded.
Let's not forget what Joshua Pritikin used to say:

"Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by

If I was off the mark by quoting Sharon on my web page, then
consider the motto of Joshua. I meant no harm. But I need to
be free to play on the edges.

feels like Spring,

Melody expands on a quote of Roger:
Yesterday Roger wrote:

"Expansion & contraction are the play of one process.
Some people are more tuned to contraction (not this - not
this) where others are more tuned to expansion (love).

I like that quote from Bruce about someone's style being "equal
opportunity destruction". What a great comment on the style
of contraction, then we have these wonderful quotes from Rumi
expressing the expansive side."

What Roger has offered here has had a significant impact
on me this morning. had quite an effect on me
last night!.....I could feel something 'click' as I read his words.

It explains so much!

More than anything I have ever read it points to the
source of much of the animosity that appears on this
list from time to time.....such as what we witnessed
with "Sharon's" remarks earlier this week.

This, to me, is worthy of a deeper look. A much
deeper look. It seems to lead to a door marked,

> Marcia:
> You cannot awaken by willful effort but by willing effort. There
> is a huge difference.

And then upon awakening,
the one that was always the same,
realizes that there never was any difference of any measure anywhere.
That in order to measure the size of a difference,
one needs to measure the size of the gap between two points of view.
This can only be accomplished when starting off from one point, proceeding
to measure the distance to another point.
And the realized one just realized, that there is no point or position that
can be taken, thus no measurements of huge or small can be made here.
And then the one that used to awaken by willfulling willingful effort is
left speechless,
since neither the words "huge" nor "small" serve to describe his position,
or his path, or his struggle.


Thank you for this clear expression, Mira.
How magical when there is no comparison to be made.
How empty when there is no one there to make a comparison.
How full when there is nothing left out anywhere.

I'm rendered speechless in this
land of no-difference, no-sameness!

>Can someone please explain to me these types of attacks by proclaimed
>awakened ones?

Blessings, Neo.
Explaining nothing of what others do,
I remain who I am.
In this universe of no awakened ones and no sleeping ones,
Peace Alone.
Proclaiming doesn't touch it, questions don't get at it -
thus, no conflict of this and that.

Many, yet no separation; diversity, yet seamless.

Infinite movement Here.
Ultimate stillness Here.
No one is not Here.
No one is Here.

From: "neo" <[email protected]>

To Melody

I agree with you. I have been coming here for awhile but then I find
myself leaving because of the animosity here. If your comments would
have been made by someone else they would not have received the same
response. Perhaps we should look at how our responses are colored by
the person that wrote it as well as the content. I have heard that
people are afraid to post because of the negativity. Since we are all
one in unity, perhaps we should express it more.

Musings of a not so innocent bystander.

No one likes us
I don't know why.
We may not be perfect
But Heaven knows we try.
But all around,
Even our old friends put us down.
Let's drop the Big One
And see what happens.
Asia's crowded
Europe's too old.
Africa's far too hot
And Canada's too cold.
And South America
Stole our name.
NDS's too confrontational.
Lets drop the Big One
There will be no one left to blame us.
We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build and All American amusement park there
They got surfin' too.
Boom goes London,
Boom Pari.
More room for you
And more room for me.
And every city, the whole world 'round
Will just be another American town
Oh how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free.
You'll wear a Japanese kimono, babe
It'll be Italian shoes for me.
They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the Big One now,
Let's drop the Big One now.

from the movie "A Blast in the Past"

neo ;-}

More neo to Melody:

There does seem to be a lot going on here that is not up front and
honest. Perhaps if we are writing to someone we do not like we should
start with the old Saturday Night Live line:
"Jane, you ignorant slut..."

In this way the negative feelings are up front right out in the open
instead of ending a message of "I hate you", Love xxx.

When I look within there are things that I do not like (very few, mind
you, as I am almost perfect). ;-}

When I look "outside" I still see me and some of that me I do not

Is it possible everything is unfolding perfectly and the problem is my
judgement? I think so. Who said that famous line something about
you will be judged as you judged?

The ramblings of a madman (certified).
xan offers on Now:

There is nothing in existence other than right now.
When we go into memory, we're no longer present in the Spirit.
We're in a contraction of the mind and the emotions,
and it actually has no value for us.
The teaching of the world is of contraction.
The teaching of the truth is of expansion.

-- John-Roger
The Tao of Spirit
More from xan:

Name and form hide reality: This is the Teaching. Giving name and form is an
obstacle to Freedom because then the Substratum, Consciousness cannot be
seen. Call it a statue of horse and the granite is hidden, see a ring and you
won't see the gold. Name and form can never leave Consciousness, as the ring
can never leave the gold. Even space is in this because only Self is.

Before a wave rises it is Ocean, before desire moves it is Emptiness. Destroy
craving and bondage by identifying as experiencing, not experience, as
Seeing, not the seer. You are Consciousness, not one who is Conscious.

To be free you must be like Freedom and this is without desire. All is and is
known in Desirelessness. If you don't want to possess remove your pockets:
duality! The past is past so don't carry it in your pocket. Why go to the
graveyard when you know that you are alive? All that is temporary must be
shunned so only take hold of your Absolute Self.

from The Truth Is ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More ballons, get your balloons now...

I like this analogy a lot. As a human balloon we are infinitely
expandable. What this means is that as we "grow" spiritually we are
constantly expanding. With every spiritual experience or insight we
grow. we expand.The balloon of our personality expands and expands.
But it will never pop, not by this natural course of expansion. And
the skin of the balloon, personality, gets thinner and thinner, BUT,
it is still there. "I" am still there. So the only solution (if it
can be called that) is to pop that balloon NOW at whatever size it
happens to be.(sorry guys, size is definietly not important in this
case). Now matter how big the balloon gets (experience)or how
much air goes in or out of the balloon, the balloon which is
personality still holds everything in place.
This is a very real and serious trap of any spiritual path. The skin
of the balloon can get so thin that it is barely visible but it is
still holding everthing in place.And it is particularly invisible to
the one whose skin it is.Which is why it is invaluable to associate
with those who are "trained" to see such things.


~ But matthew, what if the balloon skin is only imaginary?
Then it doesn't matter if expands or contacts or pops or
goes limp. What seems to be inside is the same stuff
as what seems to be outside, and is not even stuff. It's
the *stuff* that gives the appearance of skin, balloon,
personality - all imagined.

little poem from Mary Oliver . . .
(from memory and not not sure of her punctuation or if it's a fragment or the
whole thing)

Andrew Mc Donald


One morning
the fox came down the hill
and didn't see me.

And I thought to myself,
so this is the world,

. . . I'm not in it.

It is beautiful.

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