Jerry Katz
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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #314

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Harsha, Watchfulness;

The great sage Mahavira said to his disciple Gautama that one does not know
when it
will be time to go. "So always be
watchful O' Gautama!"

In Jainism, some say that the highest yoga is known as Upay Yoga or Yoga of
The highest rung of understanding in
the great spiritual traditions emphasize being aware of the innate wakefulness
of Pure

Be Watchful.

Watch your Watchfulness.



xan, matthew, Dan, Mark, Hans, Identity, Separation, Traps;

It is change of identity that ends separation."


if kindness were practiced intentionally (ie: not out of habit),it
could dramatically aid the internal changes that you speak

~ It could. Then again it could turn into just another false
identity as a Kind Person.


yes, ego can (and will) take anything, anything at all, even the most
profound spiritual realization and put it to it's own use.
I would say that it is not a change of identity that ends separation,
but that when the illusion of separation is pierced,
then identity begins to disolve.,,,,,,,matthew

~ Yes.
Not a sequence, one then the other,
but occuring all at once and out of time.



Joining this fun debate just for
more fun.
Just want to posit another point
of view, understanding
that no point of view reveals
the full truth, ever :-)

I would say neither that a change of
identity ends separation (no separation
ever occurred that needs to end),
nor that when the illusion of separation
is pierced the identity begins to
dissolve (no separation ever took
place; thus, no illusion about an unreality
needs to be "pierced"; such piercing
would also be an illusion - the illusory
piercing of an illusion, "bringing about"
the dissolution of something that
never occurred). I would
say this: no "real" separation has
ever occurred anywhere. Believe it,
or don't believe it - your belief
doesn't affect this fact one way
or another. Act as "separate" as
you want, your separation is never
more than a supposition. Why try to
end a supposition that itself
has no independent reality?


Hi guys,

It's probably already clear, but if intentional kindness can turn into
the trap of posing as a kind person, it's also possible that using the
argument that intentional kindness can turn into the trap of posing as a
kind person to avoid practicing intentional kindness can be a prior
trap. I see this minefield of self exploration as a series of traps -
out of one and into another. As long as I see that I'm in a trap and
find a way out of it, I don't worry too much about the next trap. When
I get there, I'll deal with it. For now, I'm just dealing with the
present trap. No, that's a trap itself. I also try to keep an eye out
for obvious traps and avoid them. But I live my life, so traps are
inevitable. I have enough love to escape them when I need to and so the
trap of believing in traps begins to (as Mathew says...) dissolve.

Love, Mark

Hi Mark, i never realized there were so many traps :) IMO, recognizing the
trap means the realization that thinking about kindness is not the same as
kindness. In fact, i wonder if somebody who is really kind, ever thinks
about kindness ? I don't think so because this person simply does not become
aware of a thing called kindness. It is simply what he is. The need to think
about kindness results from some sort of inner conflict about *what you are*
and *what you should be*.

And of course you are right in your first paragraph but only as an argument,
not as a reality. But probably this is so for all our (socalled) problems ?

Enjoying the argument


Larry and Jerry, Ideas;

Is there any interest in dialogueing with other groups? I was thinking
maybe egroups could set it up so a question or topic could be posted to
several groups and responses to that thread could be shared with all the
groups in the address column. Maybe list owners would have to make pacts
or something. Conceivably certain questions could fall within the
topical parameters of hundreds of groups. I think there is great
potential for list groups to facilitate world communication. Who knows
where it could lead???


The City of Egroups/Onelist probably has a population of
well over one million. In the Religion category there are
about 5000 lists perhaps representing a hundred thousand
people. I don't know where to go with your idea, Larry,
other than to say, yes, there's a populace and the means to
communicate with each other. Maybe the first thing to do is
to stand back and see the whole forest.

Maybe the next thing to do is to contact as many religion
lists as possible and present the idea to them and get
discussion started.

Part of that discussion could be the formulation of
significant questions. When questions have been stated then
they can be discussed, summarized and made public.
Translating the whole effort into actual world change is
another story. Perhaps a foundation could be set up for that

These are some ideas.


Melody and Gene, identity, nakedness;

> Melody:
> What is tripping me here is the word 'change',
> and maybe it's just semantics? but I have heard
> it said by others that one begins to 'know who
> they are'. I just can't get this. I'm wondering
> if I'm missing something because once the
> 'me' is dropped there is nobody to *be* something.
> The question absolutely falls away! So how can
> 'I' possibly know who 'I' am??

Gene: Not 'just semantics', but a powerful distinction. I can put on
any version of clothing, but as long as I am dressed, I am not

Insight has allowed me to see the practical value in remembering that
'beneath our clothes, we all are naked', but in any event, here I use
'clothes' as an analogy to 'identity'.

The one with penetrating insight can see the nakedness beneath the
clothes... even though the one who is dressed, may be in deep denial
of any 'covering up'.

Every family, culture, and tribe depends upon a recognizable
'uniform' for recognition of who is 'in' and who is 'out'. Here,
there are several variations of 'uniform'. As an example, 'Neemyth'
has tried to maintain a non-uniform appearance, but the fact that
'he' has insight, has lent him our 'official' NDS uniform, by default.

'Uniform' is either merely 'appearance' and a convenience, similar to
the namebadge donned upon entry into a security-zone, OR it is a
'sacred garb' which through deep identification, has come to actually
represent the Being who wears it.

The point here is to shed all garb. Naked is the way.

In this regard, the 'answer' to your question is this; go naked.
Identity will spontaneously reappear, over and over, even in dreams;
there is no shortage of it for any of us. Not only is it assigned to
us by virtually everyone we meet, but it also springs forth from our
PRE-VERBAL memory-base. It is this inner origin of identity which we
are trying to hunt down and 'turn off', know it or not.

> Does this make sense? Am I being dense
> here, or is this just another way of saying
> that the question or idea or 'who am i' falls
> away along with the identity?

Gene: In regards to this 'issue', you nor anyone can be expected to
be anything but 'dense'. What you are examining/tackling is the
'ultimate return home'; it is steps on a journey which calls for the
utmost in honesty and impeccability.

When I say 'return home', what I am pointing to is the allowing of
the conditioned implications which reside in the preverbal area of
the brain, to become accessible to conscious awareness. This is easy
for me to say or write... but it is NOT easy to 'allow' or to 'do'.
For some, this 'event' is similar to inviting the devil himself to
arise, like a malevolent phantom, up through the floor of one's

The scary guardian of this area of the "unconscious" is the "Angel
bearing a flaming sword" who guards the perimeter of Eden, against
the return of Adam and Eve, after their banishment by God.

For one to 'return home' is to be subject to the nature of this
guardian; it is no wonder that this event of homecoming is so rare,
and so scary for most. But it is inevitable that we return home, for
it is home where the heart is. And heart is our original nature, our
'Eden'. Only the bane of 'other people', existing as data in our
preverbal areas, prevents this homecoming. All issues are actually
with 'other'; but all other is simply self, mirrored. And like in a
mirror, what is seen is 'backwards', and what is heard is gibberish.

Alice went home 'through the looking-glass'; she stated to other:
"Why, you are nothing but a PACK OF CARDS!". And so it is; Other is
nothing but a pack of memory-cards, punched before we could use
language. These cards, dwelling deep in the unconscious, create by
default the nature of 'other'.

Identity is always 'in contrast to' other; if we can release 'other',
identity will at least shift, if not evaporate for a while. During
the time of shifting, or of evaporation, original nature can be had.
The contrast is too obvious to escape notice; it is always a
life-changing event, no matter how perceived.

> When 'I' melt into 'an other'.....there is no
> sense of 'I am you'....there is no 'I am God'
> or 'I am Love' or 'I am the unending heart'
> ....none of that whatsoever.

Gene: I am uncertain what you are alluding to here, in 'melting into
an other'. Perhaps you have the experience of impersonal 'sharing' of
awareness-space, as do I. Please clarify.

> Am I missing something? Is this saying that
> there is a sense of 'I' past the experience of
> 'union' or 'melting'?

Gene: Now is the time to reread what I posted above. Residual 'I' is
completely natural, and with practice, will fade into nothing. Noone
can be expected to have the 'perfect emptiness' at any given time,
even though this _ideal_ is forcefully promulgated as one of the
standards which signifies 'self-realization'.

I have emphasized many times, how it is good and necessary to have
compassion for oneself. This means patience and self-forgiveness, and
especially self-acceptance. Tensions and frictions which mount
within, as we attempt to clear the high bar of 'spiritual
expectations', should be let go, for this is the compassionate way to
deal with oneself.

"Zero identity" is one such ideal; it cannot be 'attained', for there
is (as is painfully repeated here) no holder of criteria present to
ascertain what has 'happened' in this event.


Maturation involves all of these factors, automatically, defined or
described or not. It is our nature to move about in the universe of
possibility. It is dangerous to suppose that there is any final
resting place. Movement in this dynamic is painful if movement itself
is defined as being lost; if movement is instead defined as life
itself, this entire dynamic can be a great (if perhaps dramatic)
adventure to enjoy.

In conversation with other,

==Gene Poole==


Having done nothing, ever,
I, who never was and am not,
am released from doing by
the simple fact of doing nothing,
ever. This simple fact is
not recognized by anyone, as
any recognition would be a
doing by a nonexistent someone.


Lynne, Life is Orange;

I am peeling back
this orange
and looking behind the mask
of orangeness

We are all peeling away the terrible masks we wear

Nothing rhymes with orange
as if the language itself
wants to keep something back

maybe the juice, or the smell of rinds in
the fingernails, or the seeds' compact voices

or maybe the meaning of life is orange?

love (yeah, suffering too)



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