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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #323

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NEO: For the past 3 days something strange has been
happening to me. It started with the message from Mary re
ACIM. During the message and my ¤responding to it I dropped
my belief system. All words depend on beliefs and words
became meaningless. Thought depends on words and thought is
becoming meaningless. my mind is getting very quiet. I feel
very strange. I have been here before but it is somehow
different now. The water running over my hands as i washed
them felt so alive.

JAN B.: What you described is not strange at all, Neo - it
is the process of de-identification. Meaning and purpose do
only exist in the one seeing them, for the sake of argument
that one could be called a "local identity" but yogis would
attribute it to "consciousness in the chakras". So when a
local identity comes into sight, fully gets known and is in
a sense left behind, meaning and purpose temporarily are
suspended, states of void and or bliss can arise, then
disappear again and how the experience is interpreted will
depend on what could be called one's safety net. When going
through the process consciously, it can be recognized the
next times, until nothing remains to de-identify and mind
remains empty.


Neo: "How do you know consciousness is present in deep
sleep if your are not aware of it? How do you know that
this is not just a belief system of yours? How do you know
it is not just part of the spiritual/religious psychosis?"

MIGUE ANGEL: Of course it is a belief system. Everything
is. Even the idea that the world exists is a belief. All
our ideas are beliefs. Except one: I am. From this one
fact, one can construct either of two main belief-frames:
1) the world is out there, existing by itself; or 2) I am
consciousness and the world appears in me. If you take path
1 then you are either a matelialist or a dualist. If you
take path 2 then you are a non-dualist. It is up to you to

But I think there are more reasons in favour of 1 than of
2: If I can say I am, that means I am consciousness.
Otherwise, how can I say it? And if the world is outside
consciousness, how is it that I know it? What is not in
consciousness (=what exists outside consciousness) cannot
be in consciousness (=cannot be known). So the very fact
that I know the world implies that it is in me, in

Neo: "How do you know consciousness is present in deep
sleep if your are not aware of it?"

MIGUEL: One cannot be conscious of consciousness itself.
Because it is not an object that could be observed. But I
can deduct that it is present even in deep sleep. For me,
by definition, consciousness is the ultimate subject, that
in what all objects come to exist. One is conscious only of
objects, and, indirectly, also of being conscious of
objects. But one is never conscious of not perceiving
anything. If you follow the belief-frame 2, then you
believe that consciousness is the screen where everything
appears. That screen oberves the images appearing on it,
and is also conscious of observing them, but does not
observe itself. There is no such thing as

What we do find difficult to imagine is the state of
consciousness without objects. Because while it lasts it is
not felt. You are the screen, even if you cannot see the
screen, even when nothing appears on the screen. You never
cease to be.

I would venture to say that the state of "deep sleep" does
not only occur during sleep What is deep sleep? The
cesation of all mental activity. Well, as I said in another
post, that can also happen awake. In meditation, between
two thoughts. Your mind is not always constantly active.
There are brief interruptions, short rests. When you don't
think of anything or feel anything. Are you conscious then?
You are, though not conscious of being conscious.


DAN: If words are used with no-game awareness, then nothing
gets caught in the word game. Once it's interpreted as
being a game or being a no-game game, it's a game. If it's
not interpreted, it's exactly as it is.

ED: Does 'caught in the word game' suggest it has some
fixed interpretation?

If yes, then, you will be heartened to learn that the
entire issue of the 'game' and 'no-game awareness' has
<joyously> passed into oblivion.

Is there something else we can talk about? :-)


DAN: Hi Ed - Would it be good for the world to know the
no-game reality? Or would it be the end of the game of good
against bad?

ED:Dan, Perhaps the question should be: can we play the
game from the no-game POV...and play the no-game from the
game perspective...just to make life more playful? <e>

DAN:Hi Ed. For me, it's the ending of game awareness.

ED:Hello Dan. The word "game" is another label. So as long
as words are used, there is a label 'game' being played. It
can be called something else but that doesn't end the label
game. So to end "game awareness" one would have to cease
communicating, or so it seems.

I'm saving that moment for my end-game, my last
breath...what are your plans? :-)

DAN: If words are used with no-game awareness, then nothing
gets caught in the word game.

Ending game-awareness isn't a matter of whether words are
used or not. It's a matter of how words are viewed while
using, how memory is used, how associations are used, how
projection occurs and is used.

This is the first and last breath.


Thought some of you might enjoy this. It is from the Onion: Somehow it reminds me of Gene's
writing! :-)

New 'Time' To Keep Everything From Happening At Once

CAMBRIDGE, MA--On what is now known as "Monday," a team of
MIT scientists unveiled "time," a revolutionary new
event-sequencing protocol which organizes phenomena along a
four-dimensional axis, preventing everything from taking
place at once. "No longer will the extinction of the
dinosaurs, the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the
Earth-Xabraxiq Pod Wars all collapse into a single point,"
theoretical physicist Dr. Lawrence Chang said. "With time,
we can now contextualize each of the universe's infinite
number of occurrences in its own spatial-temporal plane,
creating order where there once was chaos." Added Dr. Erno
Toffel: "Using time, one event can be positioned
chronologically so as to be the cause of another. For
example, a man's death may result in a gun being fired at
him. Or the other way around. We're still working out some
of the kinks."


The world isn't meaningless but the meaning is not to found
in head games or belief systems.

There are other languages besides that of the head.

And while we are talking <s> time has more than one
dimension. It isn't "either" successive time "or"
simultaneous time but "both" are contained within a volume
of eternity. Either/or is duality.



from a description of Madame de Salzmann in the Gurdjieff
International Review

"One day, I asked Madame de Salzmann a question that gnawed
at me constantly, for it was connected to all my major
decisions in life. On the surface, all seemed balanced and
harmonious, and I certainly had no right to complain. But,
deep down, nothing could quench a sense of meaninglessness,
both in my own activities and in the world around me—yet to
solve this by breaking away or dropping out seemed arrogant
and futile. It was a personal version of the ancient
dilemma of determining what belongs to Caesar and what
truly belongs to that “something else.” “I have an inner
search that I cherish and respect but also a work in life
for which I am grateful and cannot despise. Both seem
valuable, but in different ways,” I said. “What can help me
to assess how much I should legitimately give to each, so
as to maintain a balance?” She looked at me for a moment,
then answered quite simply, “Come back at nine o’clock
tonight.” When I returned, to my bewilderment it was not to
resume our conversation but to find myself included with
others in a session that she guided, leading step by step
to a complete silence.

I had expected something to be said that would clarify my
question; only as time went by did I see how precise and
practical her seemingly indirect answer had been. It was
the answer of direct experience. It became clear that it is
the quality of silent wakefulness, informing and uniting
the organism from moment to moment, that gives meaning to
each choice and to every action. On an ordinary level of
awareness, all choices will suffer from one’s lack of true
vision, and as I had so often painfully experienced, we
torture ourselves with decisions that in fact we are in no
position to take. The purer the inner state, the clearer
the vision. That evening she led us step by step to taste
what that state might be and how in it contradictions can
be resolved and priorities become real. In a cruder state,
all arguments are valid because all choices are the same.
The enigma is how to discover what can lead us to another,
deeper, truer state. I still believed that somehow or other
I could fabricate this state for myself, and I had to face
the awkward truth that even this natural desire can become
the greatest of obstacles; even the sincerest of wishes can
block that special opening toward which all aspiration
tends. Effort only has a place if it leads to a mystery
called noneffort, and then if for a short instant one’s
perception is transformed, this is an act of grace.
Although grace cannot be attained, it may sometimes be
granted. One has to let go of the leaf to which one is
clinging, but it takes no more than another leaf to blow by
for one to drop again into the usual state of confusion."


MARY: But the real hindrance to awakening for me is that I
don't wanna disappear...not yet.

DAVE:Funny how it is, don't know if I'm still hanging on to
something, but although I know that "I" am just part of a
dream, and that "I" doesn't exist apart from the dreamer,
awareness hasn't disappeared, on the contrary, it is much
less cluttered.

In the two major paradigm shifts of my life, experiencing
"I AM" and "seeing that I was just a dream", nothing that
was before my eyes changed, but in each case the perception
of it changed.

What I felt in the first instance, "I AM", shifted to "AM",
and the manifestation of "me" is delighted in helping to
restore the unity to the separation that never happened.

I AM, but not as me. Could care less (I know my wife has
another opinion, dear sweet and understanding soul that she
is). Perhaps it's better to jump off the cliff, better than
sliding down on your stomach.

Don't worry about disappearing, it's not that it all goes
away, its that it takes on a different aspect, the
manifestation of "you" leads you to its source, taking
everything in your dream with it. Isn't that just an
incredible possibility?!


Mathew 3:13-15

"Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be
baptized of him.

But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of
thee, and comest thou to me?

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becommeth us to fulfill al righteous- ness.
Then he suffered him."

MARCIA: I have always found this passage to be of
significance. To me John represents the seeker, the voice
crying in the wilderness, the one trying to do the right
thing, seeking to follow the rules, wanting to go Home,
recognizing Christ consciousness. Jesus tells him.....
"Suffer me." What does this mean?

GLORIA LEE:Probably the same sense of suffer as in "Suffer
the little children to come unto me and forbid them not."
Suffer means allow this. Baptise me to fullfill the
prophecy. Because when he does, the voice of God of
announces, "This is my beloved son" the Dove of the Holy
Spirit descends upon him..this is the one, the one whose
coming you have been announcing by crying in the

Just as later the disciples protested he should not wash
their feet, Jesus being so much greater than them, yet he
says he has come to serve and they must "allow" him to wash


NEO:The scientific belief model says yes, the quasi-Eastern
model says no. These are beliefs. I have no belief now one
way or the other. I do not see how the question can be
proved one way or the other. When you say the brain is not
the source for awareness, how can you prove that?

MIRA:What will be your proof that you have received
acceptable proof? How can you prove the very source that
enables (you) to either reject or accept proof? Looking for
proof that the "the brain is the source for awareness" (or
vice versa), happens when you take on a position that proof
can be found in some other location than here, where you
are. This question can only be raised when speaking from a
position that there is something outside yourself,
something away from you, that is able to reveal itself to
you as a legitimate authority, in order to satisfy you with
"proof". Now again, what will be your proof that you have
received the correct evidence?


MELODY I began aligning with the energy of Easter, I
re-read the verses on the Lord's Supper:

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and
broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying "Take it;
this is my body."

Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them,
and they all drank from it.

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured our for
many, " he said to them, "I tell you the truth, I will not
drink again of the fruit of the vine until the day when I
drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of

"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is

" ' I will strike the shepherd and the sheep will be
scattered. '

But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into

Peter declared, "Even if all fall away, I will not."

"I tell you the truth, " Jesus answered, "today - yes
tonight - before the rooster crows twice you yourself will
disown me three times"

But Peter insisted emphatically, "Even if I have to die
with you, I will never disown you." And all the others said
the same thing. " Mark 14: 22-31

I cry as I read this as part of Holy Thursday preparation.

I cry, as Peter, as Judas, as all who deny the Son of Man
....out of fear and ignorance.

Today seems a good day to rest in self
acceptance .....opening to a truly abiding heart.


Dan, what is your belief about consciousness? It would also
be nice to hear from xan and Mary as well as anyone
interested. What do you believe about awareness and/or


MARY: Dear Neo, I'm going through a similar phase as
you....looking at my beliefs (or as Katie says it "stories"
Everything is just your story about you and about what you
perceive as other.) And as I look at what is being written,
I see it as another story, another belief. You are all my
story of you. Byron Katie said - God is. All else is just a
story of what God is not.

And then she would even inquire about that. God is....can
you really know it's true? No. Without direct revelation or
experience I can't know that. And anything said about that
experience is just again my story about it. I'm learning
that I'm making everything up as I tell my story about you
and this world. It's all made up. Can I REALLY know that's
true? No, I can't REALLY know that. .....and so.. some
silence comes.

Someone (I forget who) said : Consciousness is
self-deception. (and that's just his story)


Enlightenment is always sudden. It is grace; when the
conditions are right, it happens. But the path leading up
to that moment is gradual. We practice, we create the
field, we prepare the ground, and the mind eventually opens
suddenly and spontaneously. Then again, after sudden
awakening can come a gradual cultivation and ripening of
the enlightened mind.

- Joseph Goldstein


XAN: You (Neo)said in one of your posts to Dan, you are
wondering if consciousness originates in the brain. This is
the belief of the majority of brain scientists. You said
this is a contrary view among non-dualists, which is to be
expected since the brain is a form in duality - brain vs no

You also mentioned a Peak Experience as opposed to a
universal experience.

These are my thoughts in response:

Supposing the brain is the source of consciousness, what is
the source of the brain?

Peak experiences do have a wide variety of expressions, so,
what of silent emptiness? How varied can that be?



Whenever I am on the verge of a new breakthrough in
conscousness the mind resists and puts up a fuss until
deepening happens. Blessedly I don't react to mind's
reactions much anymore.



The zen monk Dogen wrote and thought very profoundly about
nondual time in his big book Shobogenzo, especially in the
chapter entitled Uji. He's a bit tough to follow, but
rewarding. Part of what he said could be summarised thus;

Time itself is being, and all being is time. Being,
consciousness, and time are identical. See each thing in
this entire world as a moment of time. The self is time.
Time is not separate from you. The entire cosmos is time ,
it is not unchangeable, is not immoveable. It flows and
does not flow. Both mind and words are time. There is
nothing that arises outside of time. There is absolutely no
difference between time and any object you see around you,
or between time and you yourself.

The best online piece I've found on Dogen is here;



How to Open and Oyster

If it is pearls you want
Or just meat
Opening an oyster
Can be difficult

Gulls fly high
Clutching the oyster
Then drop it on a rock
It shatters

Starfish engulf
With many arms
And forcefully
Open the shell

Use a knife
To pry the shell
To obtain the contents

Another way
To open the oyster
Is to place it in a bath
Of nutrient rich water


Consciousness \Con"scious*ness\, n. 1. The state of being
conscious; knowledge of one's own existence, condition,
sensations, mental operations, acts, etc.

Consciousness is thus, on the one hand, the recognition by
the mind or ``ego'' of its acts and affections; -- in other
words, the self-affirmation that certain modifications are
known by me, and that these modifications are mine. --Sir
W. Hamilton.

2. Immediate knowledge or perception of the presence of any
object, state, or sensation. See the Note under

Annihilate the consciousness of the object, you annihilate
the consciousness of the operation. --Sir W. Hamilton.

And, when the steam Which overflowed the soul had passed
away, A consciousness remained that it had left. . . .
images and precious thoughts That shall not die, and can
not be destroyed. --Wordsworth.

The consciousness of wrong brought with it the
consciousness of weakness. --Froude.

3. Feeling, persuasion, or expectation; esp., inward sense
of guilt or innocence. [R.]

An honest mind is not in the power of a dishonest: to break
its peace there must be some guilt or consciousness.


I have no doubt in this silent loving awareness. I know
it to be perfect and eternal. Everything else is up for

love xan

My view today is that this silent awareness which is who I
am, allows (suffers) love and eternity, but in itself
resists characterization.



Believe it or not, from Harshasatsangh.

Perspective on Life: George Costanza.

"The most unfair thing about life is the way it ends. I
mean, life is tough. It takes up a lot of your time. What
do you get at the end of it? A death. What's that, a bonus?
I think the life cycle is all backwards. You should die
first, get it out of the way. Then you live in an old age
home. You get kicked out when you're too young, you get a
gold watch, you go to work. You work forty years until
you're young enough to enjoy your retirement. You drink
alcohol, you party, you get ready for high school. You go
to grade school, you become a kid, you play, you have no
responsibilities, you become a little baby, you go back
into the womb, you spend your last nine months floating
........ then you finish off as an orgasm."

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