Jerry Katz
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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #329

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Forget better and worse.
Just be unwoven.

Forget getting and losing.
Just be.

Forget completing anything,
even forget producer and product.

Forget your forgetting -
then where are you?

--Dan Berkow


what's interesting about a screen? --Larry

What's displayed on it of course. Other than that, nothing
at all. --Phil


Anything we share in this forum is a concept. The concept
we are sharing now points to a real experience, but one
that cannot be shared. It can only be experienced
subjectively. Those that know, know.

I think we share more than concepts. Maybe it's a spiritual
virus :-)

You're right Larry. The words on the page are sketches of
concepts, the essence of understanding them is something
more. There is a communication between hearts that occurs
here. The language employed is Love.



I really think we should get together to come up with a
common definition of the word. If I do suspend judgement
then enlightenment does just not fit. Its kinda like being
in love, you know it is like being in love or being love,
one knows it (I think).

There certainly are lots of definitions of enlightenment.
Holding an idea of what it's like to be enlightened may be
useful up to a point but eventually it forms a barrier to
enlightenment. You don't need to think about being in love,
you fall in love. There's a pop song I vaguely remember
where the singer keeps saying "I'm not in love" but it's
obvious he is. Saying "I'm not enlightened" can be like

It was 10cc, the amazingly talented Godley and Creme. This
song came out in 1975, when I was a fifteen year old school
girl, and I set my sights on graeme, then a 20 year old
student who didn't want to settle down. He kept singing
that song to me. Ha ha. We've been married 20 years in

I'm not in love, so don't forget it.
It's just a silly phase I'm going through.
And just because I call you up,
Don't get me wrong, don't think you've got it made.
I'm not in love, no no, it's because...
I like to see you, but then again, that doesn't mean you
mean that much to me.
So if I call you, don't make a fuss - don't tell your
friends about the two of us.
I'm not in love, no no, it's because...

I keep your picture upon the wall.
It hides a nasty stain that's lying there.
So don't you ask me to give it back.
I know you know it doesn't mean that much to me.
I'm not in love, no no, it's because...
Ooh, you'll wait a long time for me.
Ooh, you'll wait a long time.
I'm not in love, I'm not in love...



So manifest-unmanifest are all conclusions reached by the
wakeful state, the Brahman and the ParaBrahman etc are all
the concepts. All one can say is that Every thing is
concept in that sense the advaitic doctrine of maya comes
true. We have no other means to find out the truth.

The Way to Truth is indeed Clear and Direct, say the Sages
like Sri Ramana. It is our experience, however, that we
stumble, fumble, and mumble seemingly endlessly on the
spiritual path. So What prevents us from Seeing and Being?
It seems it is the mind itself ultimately, however we
choose to define it, that hinders Realization or
Recognition of the Eternal.

The Mind can be our friend or our enemy. This truism is the
basis of most schools of thought of spirituality and
psychology and religion.

We need not reflect long to realize that all discussions
and intellectual attempts to understand, use the faculty of
the mind. All spiritual practices as well are based on the
presumption of the use of the mind. While the activity and
power of the mind can takes us to the highest regions of
celestial heights and understanding, the mind is unable to
transcend itself. Therefore, the Truth that permeates the
mind is not grasped clearly.

The use of the faculty of intelligence and discrimination
is an important function of the mind on the spiritual path.
However, the mind upon reaching spiritual maturity gives
even that up. All discussions and conclusions reached about
the nature of reality, Brahman, Parabrahman, brain,
consciousness, etc. by their very nature involve
perception, interpretation, and judgment. The beauty of
Self-Realization lies in giving up everything to the Lord
of the Heart that is the Self. Giving up everything,
including the mind itself, is what makes Self-Realization
possible. The Pure Knowing that Knows It Self and longs for
absolutely nothing is the Self that is often indicated by
the term Sat-Chit-Ananda.

So it would appear that the ultimate sacrifice is that of
our perceptions and interpretation and our suffering and
whatever else that constitutes our identity. This sacrifice
of one's identity is not something external but is the
attitude of surrender to the Lord who sits in one's own
Heart. If spiritual practices have a purpose then it must
be to allow the mind to mature and finally surrender to the
Source of its own Reality. Ramana Maharshi has pointed out
that God, Guru, Grace, Self all mean the same thing.

I would recommend "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" for
everyone. Also "Be As You Are" by David Godman is an
important compilation of conversations with the Sage of



Hi Marcia... you wrote to Neo (in part):

You put these questions out there as bait and when someone
tries to answer them you "slip" away from them with another
question which seems to relate but has actually "switched
the framework" on them. Hmmm. The old bait and switch


Gene: Here you are intuitively sensing what I refer to as
'mixing levels'. Your use of the word 'framework' seems to
be identical to my use of the word 'levels' in our previous
exchanges (which petered out for some reason).

When I warn against 'mixing levels', I am pointing out the
overall difficulties which that behaviour engenders. It is
possible to 'hide from oneself', as well as from others, by
mixing levels.

Leaving each level/framework 'as it is' allows resolution;
analytical power of mind can and will properly classify
aspects in a relative way, thus eventually cancelling any
questions arising from observation. But if one mixes
levels, no question can be answered, not even in a relative
way, as you are seeing firsthand.

On the issue of the 'idiot'; this is one of several such
categories of 'types', as invented by Mr G. Another 'type'
is 'lunatic'; each type (perhaps you could detail the
entire list here for us?) embodies not only obvious
weaknesses, but also potential for particular styles of
brilliant realization or transcendence. I generally agree
with Mr G's characterizations, at least within the limited
context which he deliberately created via his teachings.

It is useful to be open to characterizing oneself as an
'idiot', if one realizes this property in the sense that Mr
G intended. All human-created frameworks are, as you know,
subject to instant collapse, and need constant
re-enforcement... including Mr G's 'work' paradigm. In
fact, I see that it was his highest hope that as his
intricate frameworks collapsed, that they would take all
other 'beliefs' down at the same time, leaving as a
remainder, only the shock of total emptiness.


One thing is clear to me now. I was not understanding what
you meant by levels. What I believe you are talking about
is what is referred to as buffers in G.'s work. Buffers are
not levels but buffers keep us from seeing all the levels.
Buffers, to me, is a perfect word because we are buffered
from the shock of seeing all our selves thus revealing the
shock of our nothingness or no one thingness.

What I was thinking you were meaning by levels is vertical
awareness. There is a level where all levels (your way of
saying levels) is seen. This is the level where the
nothingness is seen. I do not experience it as nothingness
but I see the nothingness of my ordinary level of
consciousness. This is the level I experienced with my
friend in the experience we spoke about before. The level
where we (he and I) were looking "from" the same place.
Looking "through" my/his eyes. What was subjective becomes

Leaving each framework 'as it is' seems to me to be what I
think of as not identifying with it or giving it my
identity stamp. Or, as is more often the case, letting go
of the identification that I see I am in. Another way of
looking at it that has been helpful to me is to not come to
any conclusion. As I attempt to draw a conclusion about
what I am seeing I am identifying i.e. I am giving the
observation an identity. Identifying an observation is not
the same as identifying "with" an observation. There is a
subtle but critical difference. Most often this is exampled
in the difference between describing behavior and taking it


The HarshaSatsangh Summer Retreat 2000 cordially invites
our NDS sister list to join us for a joint Millenium

WHEN? Begins Fri afternoon July 14, Sat, and on to Sun
afternoon staying two nights FRI and SAT.

WHERE? The Providence Zen Center, 50 acres of rural beauty
outside Providence, RI - see the URL for details of
directions and picture of pagoda!

COST? For $55 per night, the Zen Center provides lodging
and vegetarian meals. Rooms sleep 3 to a room on futons on
the floor, bring your own bedding or sleeping bag.
(Bathrooms with showers are private, not dormitory style.)

WHO? So far, Harsha, Jerry, Greg, Andrew, David Hodges
(even more mysterious then Michael Read) Christiana (all
the way from San Francisco!!) and Dharma and Victor (known
only on HS) and me Gloria.

The Zen Center CAN house up to 75 people and they are
holding this weekend open for us so we can add more people
as we go along and get closer to the date. Also please feel
free to bring along spouses or friends, as so far I am the
only one who is doing this.

They do understand we are not holding a silent meditation
retreat and want to organise our own activities. We are
still taking suggestions for some whole group or small
group times and we expect lots of unstructered time for
walking and talking.

PLEASE email me privately if you can attend or have
questions. Updates will be posted from time to time on both

Gloria [email protected]

It would be great if lots more of you can make this


Thank you Sri Greg-ji. The fragrance of your lotus feet
reaches all continents (through the Internet). Your
knowledge of so many traditions and schools of thought is
remarkable. Perhaps you can share a list of readings or
books that you like. We all look forward to your presence
at the summer retreat.

Will do a quick booklist based on some recent discussions a
bit later Harsha-ji, after I do some actual work at work!

I look forward to the retreat too. One really fun thing
I've done at other retreats is a drum circle. Everybody
bring their favorite
instrument/drum/gong/bell/spoons/sticks/pots+pans, etc.
After a short meditation, we start with a simple but catchy
rhythm and smoothly work into a trance-like drumming
session. It can last for hours, and I've seen amazing
transformations occur, with people opening graciously to
parts of themselves they didn't know about or approve of!
There is a great drum-master from Montreal who taught this
to me over the last several years. He has 300-person drum
circles downtown Montreal on Sundays. Maybe there are
others who have done this too.




Michael : "how will we know the truth?"

Dan : "By being it."

Exactly! The problem arises when one takes truth to be a
formulation, a belief system, a theory about reality,
rather than reality itself. Ultimately, no theoretical
formulation is true, because Reality, which is not an
object, cannot be expressed in words. You can only be it.




I would just like to add a point. Neo also came to his
realization by dying. This could represent ego death.

Excellent point neo. Thanks.

While were on the subject... Remember the last scene, how
Neo looked around kind of knowingly.
Sort of breathed in being and went on his way.
Just a reminder... ego death doesn't by any means turn one
into a zombie. :-)



"God is not a consolation. God is what you Realize in the
unconsolable state. God is the Obvious when the self
contraction is released."

"In your daily life you should exist in the agony of
confrontation with the ego. You must have more nerve to
practice this Way of Life."

Hey, hey, hey,

anybody else a zig zag idiot? I am. No wait, saying that I
am means I'm not, right? That's honesty, which implies
consistency, which means unchanging, which is perfection,
so I am perfect. Yeah, that's it... Or is it? no, following
that logic implies that I am zigzagging because I started
with I am and then I deduced I'm not, so I guess I am.
(zigzagging) Am I? I don't wanna be... I think I'm growing
out of it. Yeah, that's it. I'm over it! now I'm not. Yup,
that is where I stay. no more zig zag. Hmmm... Does that
mean no more zig or no more zag? I wanna be zig cause that
sounds cool (david Bowie and all...) But zag is a candy
bar, and... aw nuts.

my fingers are mad, but I am sane. I am mad at my fingers
for being mad, but that's insane. Now my fingers are mad at
me because I let them know I was mad, but if that's true,
then I must me mad, so it's reasonable that my fingers are
mad at me, so they are sane, but that sounds mad, so...

Oh wait, if in the first paragraph I hadn't implied that
the phrase "I am" means that I am zigzagging (or anything),
but just stopped at I am, maybe I wouldn't be mad. or same
or zig or zag or an idiot or not an idiot or... How nice.

Does the word idiot predate or post date the concepts of
ego, id and super ego? Is there a cause and effect
relationship? I like meaning, so I ascribe it to
everything. (whether others agree or not....)

zigzagging away on the thin ice of a new day, Mark

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