Jerry Katz
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The wind carves shapes into the beach sand

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Highlights #502

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Monday October 18

Jivano wrote:
I can't understand, how one can live in the present, without have lost
his wishes and hopes first. So these are certainly effects which need to
be created: frustration and hopelessness.
Yes, we're all very familiar with this school.
The trouble is, it doesn't work. Some will say insight or grace will
turn hopelessness into freedom from hope. Anyone who stays in this list
is betting on insight, but we all have a fairly high level of
understanding but still nothing. Something is missing. What makes it


Hello to all. I have been lurking (off and on) for a coupla months now. And
may I
ask, (don't get offended!), why do you all read/ participate in this group?

I do, when I have nothing better to do.<s>


Some 5 years ago, it became next to impossible to get software updates for the
computer the "usual" way - so the computer was hooked up to the Internet.
it, An E-mail group was found on Kundalini. That started membership to a few
lists, no
more :) In fact, the NDS was "born" from that K. list...

And please, I am not asking in an accusatory voice- I'm just curious, that's
all. I
find it very ironic that a group of people who are seekers/ knowers of "truth"
(or so
they say), would have an e-mail group.

What is the irony about?

One could consider it a pass time - nothing serious as seriousness is a
disease. The
competitors for pass time are the beach, the mountains and making music :)

Why? What is the source of your expectations?

Sure, you could use the defense that you are here to share your knowledge with
but shouldn't you tell them to look within, and not without?

When the without becomes the within, then what to do Christina?


Where is within? Where is without? Where does the boundary come from? And I
don't have
any knowledge whatsoever :)

Or, at the very least, at everything, but not at specifics (such as this
Where is talking going to get anyone?

Hopefully the realization that there is nowhere to go, nothing to get.

No idea can enter your mind that wasn't already there to begin with, so why try?

Indeed the end of all trying.

Now for that end not to be another intellectual game, all "trying" has to be
actually exhausted in the first place, isn't it?


Most thoughts are present as a potential to unfold - one just isn't aware of
them. And
talking doesn't get one anywhere, nor does silence.

Instead of suggesting what we should say, simply say what should be
said. Or is there hesitation to get directly involved because it would
go against expectations of how a meditative seeker/knower 'should'

But please understand, I am only a high-schooler with nothing better to do than
around all day and think, smile, and smile some I must be a little
off, hey?

~Christina @:^)

You may be a high-schooler, but it sounds to me like you have a phd in
living life.

luv ya,


At last - a lady of leisure :) Not having anything to do either, as it is warm
sunny, off
to the beach :)


(using the lingo of high-schoolers, or that's what I am told, when I chat
with teenagers)

Cheers, Christina



Hi Christina, nice to meet you. I don't know how ironic it is for
seekers and knowers to have an email group, but it _is_ unusual. For me,
it is a bit of an experiment in a new way of finding out who I am. The
challenge of relationship in an unusually open environment (email) and
all the various insights people bring in enriches and deepens my self
enquiry. Your question brings up an interesting topic we haven't
considered before, i.e., how to address these issues for a younger
audience. May I ask, could you tell us a little about yourself and what
brings you here?



Hi Christina,

The outside
isn't separate from the inside.

Writing occurs as expression of
thought. The thought can't
"deliver" what is beyond thought,
but so what? That's not the
job of thought.

The unanswerable question "Who is
posting here" sparks a lot
of discussions that go nowhere. But
that's okay. Nothing has to go somewhere;
in fact, seeing that there is no somewhere for
it to go is "just right".

Enjoying your question...

-- Dan

> a significant stage along the Divine
> Path Of Growing Old is when we realize that our mothers were wise all
> along. For those too young to relate to this bit of Truth, well you
> have something to look forward too.
> ..........matthew

Each mother leaves a legacy of their own

When I remember my mother, it is not for her wisdom.

When thoughts of my mother come to me, I see
the face of innocence....the face of curiousity......
the face of laughter.....and, more specifically....

a picture of my mother crawling around underneath
the Christmas tree, days before Christmas,

and asking, "Can't we open just one ?! "


surely the NDS has no great impact in the world.
This e-mail-group represents IMO a discussion,
what is similiarly amongst most people.

>From our roots of thoughts/beliefs we organize
individuel/social life.

The WW2-catastrophy gives IMHO a pre-taste
of possible evolution in
social/individuel life.

That is my reason, dear Dan,
to be concerned, to uncover
the roots of manipulating
people's mind.

By these discoveries we start to manipulate
people's mind with all tools,
we have found.

Some are here to share and show all tools,
we have found, because some want to dive
to their deepest layers of truth


as far I have studies the 'laws-of-existence',
these laws mostly provided the contrary
for my expectations.

It took me some decades to recognize
my expectations as social
conditioned stupidities.


expects acceptance

> You cannot even simply say "No" or
> "I don't think so." - you have to chose
> words which imply that I am interpreting
> while you are doing something
> different/better. And you are doing this
> without stating "I think so and so..."

LOL! Well stated, Jivano.

This is a very common tactic
here in NDS......used by many
......however unconsciously.

It's a tactic which says,

"I am seeing you clearly....

and simply describing what I see....

whereas what *you* see,
is only an interpretation
.....or a projection of your
own attitudes."

( Unless of course, it is
my 'brilliant Light' that you
are seeing. And then, of
course, you are a wise and
compassionate sage. <s> )

It really is funny to watch
what all gets 'served up'

and even 'swallowed'

when offered in a wrapper
of 'polite-ness'

and having the 'appearance' of
non-confrontation or

Keep calling 'it' the way you see
it, Jivano.

No matter what 'color' you might
add to 'it', it's transparency remains.




> To frustrate is one of the techniques the spiritual
> friend will use if she/he sees it fit.


The frustration is the activity
of trying to get somewhere,
be something, have something.
The one who is a mirror to
the frustrated one simply
is being.
Being can only reflect frustration
and compulsive activity
back to its source.
What else could possibly happen
with "being"?


>> I can't understand, how one can live in the present, without have lost
>> his wishes and hopes first. So these are certainly effects which need to
>> be created: frustration and hopelessness.
>> -------------------

>> Yes, we're all very familiar with this school.
>> The trouble is, it doesn't work. Some will say insight or grace will
>> turn hopelessness into freedom from hope. Anyone who stays in this list
>> is betting on insight, but we all have a fairly high level of
>> understanding but still nothing. Something is missing. What makes it
>> work?



If you are not 'consciously able to create hopelessness, you are dead

Show me something you are not creating deliberately herenow laughing one ?

Diversified Pou

Dear Pou,

You wrote:
>Beloved Dan,

Hi. I love you, too.

>I think in the terms of realness, you would not disagree that long lasting
>friendships that obviously you have with many people here on this email
>group are things that are earnt.

I would see these as developments over time.
My life is not in time, yet developments
through time are life's flowerings.
And yes, friendship here is included in that.

Frankly, e-mail correspondence has a very
emphemeral quality, very evanscent.
Friendships off-line feel different, more

But e-mail friendships can be quite real,
and real life meetings have borne this
out on occasion. Yet the quality of
the "real life" meeting can't be
predicted by the e-mail. The sense of
the "energy" and "being" of a person is
communicated in a limited fashion
through words.

Friendships I have with people here on-line
are not "somethings" to be cherished, not
necessarily feeling "earned", but
are flow of life, learnings,
at times beautiful in movement,

That which isn't moving allows what moves to
be seen.
I see you.
And I appreciate what you share here,
and with me.

>They're earnt over laughter, over awe, over intrigue, over dismay, all the
>human experiences that can be mustered into the palm of a human being.

Ah, earned as shared livingness.
Yes, earned in that sense.

>And only you can qualify in that fire of love when you speak of friendship.
>For I believe Dan, that every person must eventually stand in that fire of
>love which is the fire of friendship.

Speaking for myself, friendship is
wonderful, and when
it occurs I'm happy.

Perhaps there are those who go to live
in the woods somewhere by themselves
and are fine that way.
For me, the daily sharing in mutuality
is important. To call it "fire" fits,
because it demands of who one is,
and by living it, one is changed. To avoid
it is to avoid change.

As for the Unchanging, That would never
be found avoiding change ;-)

>I also believe Dan, that real friendship can be found even here in cyber
>space. That too may sound strange to some but when the heart is absolutely
>involved in the equation - if you needed something Dan, do you understand

Yes, the exchange of words involves caring.

>It doesn't matter what status of so-called intellectual ability or status of
>humanness, part of being human is the quality to reach out and ask.

Quite so.

>I am sure you are consciously aware of this.

I'm aware that to reach out, to ask, to want is human.
That to give and receive is human.

I'm aware of it in my day to day life with
friends and family.
And I work as a therapist.
How would I assist people by telling them
not to reach, not to ask, to deny they
feel and want?
Also, that such reaching is fruitful
when sincerity is, not in response to
an expectation or introjected
"need" of an other.
So that the giving and receiving be
expression of heart, not
fulfillment of expectation.

>I am in no uncertain terms pretending I've earnt the right to be called a
>friend. Yu may feel that way, so be it.

I feel I am getting to know you,
that I have enjoyed our conversing,
have felt a sense of learning.

This is appreciated. The same is
true of response, respect and sharing.
In these, there is friendship.

>Friendship means so much to different people and that is only something that
>friends can qualify. for every friendship as you are aware, is unique in
>its flowering.

Unique in flowering, yes.

>For some of us, friendship is the ability to simply show our tears to
>others. Just to show our tears without the need for justification or

True. To be vulnerable and know one is
not being judged, evaluated, compared --
is friendship.

>Others write crazy love letters to others that are dear to heart and being.

Yes. Love is crazy and sane.

>While I may not be qualified to call you my friend Dan, I'm learning to
>appreciate what you are and who you are and maybe why you are.

I appreciate that.
And I'm learning the same about you.

>For Dan, it is clear that I am not writing to Dan, yet I am writing to Dan.

Quite clear.

>But I'm writing to that aspect of Dan in my universe. The fact that I am
>the universe writing to the aspect of that universe.

That is indeed who is writing and to whom.

Blessed be, Pou ...


dear dan.

butterflies and rainbows
open wounds and death

the ten thousand things
have never occurred

love, cee


Dear Cee,

lives wounds,
dies as living.

Only the unborn
dares birth and death.

A deaf mute said,
"I have no mouth".



dear dan,

only the formless
dances alone

fathomless joy
unutterable peace

dancing here
laying down

on the same pillow

love, cee

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