Jerry Katz
photography & writings

The wind carves shapes into the beach sand

Search over 5000 pages on Nonduality:
Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #59

Click here to go to the next issue.

This is an excerpt from an exchange between Dan and Gene. It
incorporates three days of dialogue, hence the 'he' says,
'he' said, 'he' had said:

Dan said:

The only relevant teaching is from one's Self IMO, or from
God as
simultaneously immanent and transcendent, said another way.
One's Self as Self *is* the "instruction," the "teaching,"
the "how" to which you refer. In other words, there is no
"how" to any of this, simply pure spontaneous manifestation
of Self within Self via Self. The manifestation, termed
Maya by Hindus, is none other than Self-activity. The
instruction to which you refer seems to me to be the
ever-increasing recognition of Maya as Self-activity.

Gene said:

Yes, that is one way to put it. I hesistate to say it, but
it has already occured. (We) view or experience, our entire
spectrum of 'possibility' from our present station; as
advised by ourselves that we are becoming.

Gene had said:

In any event, as we record our experiences, there arises
evidence that our 'awakening' is arranged; that we are
indeed being prompted to 'understand' and to 'know'.

And Dan had said:

Yes, this also seems significant to me.
What is not expressed is what is not known.

And Gene had said:

In my view, the 'nondual experience' is had, upon the silent
admission that there is indeed 'something' which begins a
dialog or
conversation with us, encouraging and teaching, leading us
to grapple with the issues and illusions which are in
effect, classroom materials for the aspiring student.

And Dan had responded:

"Nondual" to me says student-teacher with no gap between.
reversal, play with words, instruction that is play.

And Gene responds:

Yes... as far as it goes. I am probably stretching something
here. Please bear with me.

Now Gene had said:

I point to the 'Guru-function', which 'masqeuerades' as
'Maya'. The
nondual experience admits the Guru. Only later, could the
student 'say' that 'there is no Guru' and refer to 'Maya' as
meaningless data-display, sans interpretation.

To which Dan had responded:

I don't see Maya as meaningless, I see it as the play of the
Divine One,
the very body of this One. You speak of befores and afters
here, yet
"nondual" to me says "no before no after."

Now Gene says:

Okay, now I am on the border of saying something. 'Nondual'
says to me... that the apparency of Maya is a gradient-rich
display, which we observe as we move. The recession of
objects of 'Maya' denotes our movement... into the
(apparent) future, as we face our own past. In other
words... we are moving forward while facing backwards,
viewing a recession of apparent objects. Entropy is apparent
in this backward view. I do not claim that this is 'actual'
but rather apparent. Still, such data is relevant, and as
you say, is not meaningless. Perhaps it offers a clue to
something, like maybe why we face backwards...

Dan had said:

Perhaps an increasing awareness of "no before no after," yet
in this increasing awareness, there is always One, birthing
itself, speaking to itself. All equally involved in this
divine play of Being. Speaking for myself, I find nothing
added to this by calling it a "Guru-function." Again,
speaking for myself, I conceptualize
"direct involvement in One," although I can see how some
might benefit from conceptualizing "the Guru is bestowing
blessings and teachings on me." I can certainly accept that
this conceptualization is one you've found useful, and I'm
respectful of that.

To which Gene says:

Welllll.... that is not exactly what I meant. I am heartened
by your
reporting of your honest experience; I have similar reports
of such, but
that is not what I was/am getting at.

For Gene had said:

That such may be said 'later', post-experience, may lead the
(new) reader to assume that there is no 'parent'. This
itself may be useful, leading to seeing no 'external or
separate' parent or pedagogue, and thus pointing to self as
parent. Self as parent ("none-other") will eventually fade
as reality, leaving only the primary relationship of

You see, Dan had said:

The primary relationship has been conceptualized in several
ways of
which I am aware, including Shiva/Shakti, Host/guest,
God/person, Goddess/person, Gods/person, Mother/child,
Father/son, Guide/friend, Healer/healed, One/many and you're
saying, apparently, that Guru/student works best for you.
The important thing here, for me, is to understand what is
occurring at the boundary that is the basis of
relationship. That understanding seems the critical thing,
the understanding that there *is* relationship and seeing
what it is and how it is.

To which Gene says:

Yes, primary relationship does imply 'other', does it not?
other... apparent as at least an outphased (in relation to
me) version of myself, if not an actual other. This is a
basic question, yes?

For Gene had said:

Even the concept of separation will fade, far beyond
questions of
'separate/non-separate'. What I cannot deny is the leading,
encouraging of 'not-me', that which is 'greater' and which
is teaching me. I stand comfortably 'next to' that which I
speak of; I am safe there; the only 'danger' comes from any
tendency to identify as 'that'.

And Dan had said:

The main thing I hear in this is that you are comfortable,
you are safe,
and your direction is growth. That sounds good, as I would
wish this for All. A question regarding your last
assertion: If "that" alone is, then who is there to
identify with "that"?

To which Gene responds:

Yes, that is the classical question. Can it be answered?
Perhaps the
concept of the outphased self will fill the bill here,
perhaps there is
something else.


Tomas shared and challenged:

I've been thinking about the issue of nonduality and
education, on and off, for many years. Recently this has
become an immediate consideration. For the past year I've
been working for a social services organization that has
been helping elementary school systems get setup with
Technology centers (computers and internet..etc). My job has
been to help the teachers and students integrate the
technology into their curriculum. What seems to be the
common vision or hope for such an integration is the
possibility to expand the independence of the students
(greater choice in the own studies via internet)and somehow
be involved in the nurturing of a greater knowledge base.

It's been interesting to see a little bit of this school
system at work- in the process i've thought about this
question of education and what it really means.

It occurred to me at some point- Why am I not expressing
myself in this job? Why am I holding back from taking risks
and experimenting?

Why live fearing that I'll be fired? why live holding onto
What am I getting from this hesitation, this fear, and the
Job "victim" game it creates?

In the process of coming to terms with this, I have begun
gravitating toward a deeper consideration of this issue of
education and toward a deeper involvement with it.

It's made me reflect and also appreciate the work that was
started by
teachers such as J.Krishnamurti. He was particularly
involved in the
education arena and seemed to have really led the way in a
deep nondual
consideration of education.

In a recent conversation I had with a friend, we considered
the growth in awakenings happening in our society and
sensing that the time is becoming ripe for an impact at the
level of the educational process in our society. This seems
to be the inevitable- that we begin to discuss what
education is really about and how our children are being

In my current position, as it will be more the case in
general, this
consideration must take note of the fact of our technology
(specifically, the Internet).

I've had my own Ideas on this subject but I want to hold it
back for now. My thought in writing this was to begin some
conversation going, see what everyone thinks of as the
deepest meaning of education and how it can be carried out.

In discussing this issue (education and internet) with Scott
Morrison (a
teacher listed in the realizers list) he expressed the
interest in starting a new school founded in awakening. We
began discussing some ideas about using the internet as a
self-exploration tool- which means a more focused
organization of information by way of something like the
directory structures (Scott is involved in the Open
directory project)

In a recent development, my director wanted me to start
working with a
difficult Highschool group (from the same poor school
district) She said she could no longer oversee them but was
concerned about how they are spending their time. She's
interested in getting them to spend more time using english.
This afforded me and interesting opportunity to experiment.
I'll talk about this later.

To get the ball rolling- I'm presenting the following

1- what is the meaning of true education? how should the
child be taught? What is being done currently?

2- How can current technology participate in supporting the
process of true education? (How can the internet?)


Kristie responded to Tomas statement:

Good, good topic! The Summerhill school in England had a
simple "mission
statement" re education: to teach their students the
capacity to be happy and work joyfully....Other pedagogues
and "philosophers" that speak of education as related to the
development of consciousness and the spiritual needs of the
child include:

Joseph Chilton Pierce
John Holt
The Summerhill School
Rudolph Steiner (Waldorf Schools)
Piaget - the development of moral consciousness
Book "Whole Child, Whole Parent"


And regarding Tomas' 'Nonduality and Education topic, Ivan

To educate a child is to able him to be
without self-image. In any relation, one image brings forth
another image (from the other, in relation). To every
there is the correspondent image. So, proper education
is the ability relate without self-image with the pupil --
other words, the perfect teacher is the whole teacher. Now,
in our day to day schools, the question would be: -- how to
give information without doing much harm, or with minimum

Sorry for the aparent simplicity....


And Dan responds to Tomas:

Tomas asked:

1- what is the meaning of true education? how should the
child be taught? What is being done currently?

Dan responds:

If your idea of "true education" is so radical it has no
application to
society, then the child may be hurt by it when needing to
deal with the
society, find employment, and have relationships. So
education needs to
come from the big picture that can nurture creativity and
awareness while dealing clearly with society as it is
(including its prejudices, demands, tensions).

Tomas also asked:

2- How can current technology participate in supporting the
process of true education? (How can the internet?)

Dan responds:

The internet can best be used if it leads to real-life give
and take with others who are phyiscally present. This would
be ideal, because the internet tends to create its own
separate reality. It can sometimes be an artificial way to
replace real life give and take, real life relationship
skills (such as reading nonverbal language, using senses
other than sight, communication other than words).


Ivan joins Gene and someone else, in this melding by Glo:

Says Ivan:

How can something be so completely unknowable
and so real at the same time......the mind shrinks away from
all thoughts, and the heart is filled with this almoust

Says Gene:

The painful passion is relieved by the mind-shattering roar
the Dragon of Eden, who then becomes the only real thing, so
real as you
say... mind is blasted to nothingness, by the fire of the
breath of the
Dragon, whose triumphant roar is all that there is... so
pure is the flame, that there is no smoke, no ash, only
light... only light...

Now bring on the ever-watchful Glo:

These two quotes The unknowing and then
fire..combustion. Brings to mind so strongly this fragment
from a
larger poem, Poesia, by Neruda. You guys have to hear this..
like you wrote it. Glo

I didn't know what to say, my mouth
could not speak,
my eyes could not see
and something ignited in my soul,
fever or unremembered wings
and I went my own way,
deciphering that burning fire
and I wrote the first bare line,
bare, without substance, pure
pure wisdom
of one who knows nothing,
and suddenly I saw
the heavens
unfastened and open.


Offerings from Xan:


Letting the mind
drop away


I am asleep and in a dream,
a complex dream
of people, places, and things,
of time, of power and beauty
and of their gain and loss.

Then I dream someone shows up
saying, "Is this all you've known so far?"

In my "huh?" I notice
there is an atmosphere
within which I have been
immersed, lost
in all these stories,
an atmosphere of myself
as dreamer.

I dream that I am
waking up from dreaming,
the stories change in flavor
and the characters too.

Now I dream


This knowing is too simple
for rules and regulations.

This master too intimate
for anyone to guess.

This joy is too unexpected
to fit into my theology.

This vastness too sweet
to be named by my mind.

This shock of deep knowing
cannot be managed.

This grace too surprising
All walls falling down.

In the mood for a little controversy? Petros offered this
quote from L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology fame. Scientology
has been implicated in unsavory activities over the years.
So have Rajneesh, Da Free John and others. I don't think
it's my job to protect anyone from the unsavory. I'd rather
keep everything in the open. So here's a number from L. Ron:

"And I never forget I'm handling an individual. I'm not
'people,' ever. I'm handling you and you and you and you.
Because you
are truth. I don't care what you look at as truth to begin
with or what
you will look at as truth at the end of the line. If there's
any truth
to be found, you're it. If there's any truth to be known,
it'll be you
who know it. And beyond that and outside of it, there isn't
truth." -- The Road to Truth

"Never compromise with your own reality."
-- The Code of Honor, Scio 0-8


Petros mentioned an idea based on Scientology teachings, and
aleks had a little fun with it:

Petros declared:

I am also conducting research on a variation of the
electropsychometer which I may call the Realization Meter or
something like that, which will enable for the first time
scientific validation of Self-Realization.

aleks suggested:

this is really interesting, in a sci fi sort of way. you
could build all this machinery and electronics, but why not
start with a basic test like this: get a bowl of cornflakes,
granola or some other fruitarian fare. fill the bowl
almost to the brim with a mixture of soy milk and grains and
place it *directly* on top of the devotee's head. note
that their spine must be straight (as is correct yoga
posture) and the devotee should be watching the breath.
then have them start doing the ramana "who am i " bit. i
would say that when the bowl of cornflakes falls off their
head, and they continue to smile like the unknowing sots
that we all *are* :) --milk running down their face and all
over their new mala from bodhi tree and even onto their
crisp copy of "I am that" they are realized.

offered in love and jest
no harm intended,


Someone called Petros the Marco Polo of nonduality. Here is
another of Petros' rare spices:

"Realization of the Absolute
is simple. Our thoughts
and concepts make it
seem difficult."

"You have to want Realization
of the Self more than your life,
because that's what it is --
more than your life."

"The same force makes
both saint and sinner.
The same force animates
both love and hate."

The above quotes are from a lovely little book called
"Reflections," first published in 1969. Master
Subramuniyaswami wrote a bunch of these small booklets in
the late sixties and early seventies and they consist of his
text alternating with little photos of children in India,
old people, meditators, etc. Most recently Gurudeva, as he
is now called, wrote the huge volumes _Dancing with Siva_,
_Merging with Siva_, and _Loving Ganesha_, and he also
published _Hinduism Today_. These recent works are more
traditionally 'religious' and much less insightful in my
opinion. Gurudev is an American who started this life as a
dancer at the San Francisco ballet company until, at the age
of twenty, he felt called to renounce worldly life and
undertake a pilgrimage to Sri Lanka. In 1949 he was
ordained by Jnaniguru Yoganathan. He is now head of the
Saiva Siddhantha Church,headquartered in Hawaii, which he
founded in 1949. It was the first Hindu sect founded by and
primarily for Westerners.

I had the rare privilege of meeting Sri Gurudeva at a
booksigning for
_Merging with Siva_ at the Bodhi Tree in L.A. a couple of
weeks ago. He was sitting at the front of the room signing
books for people in line, and when I got up to him I kneeled
on one knee so I could hand him a book to sign. I expressed
admiration for the old booklets' simplicity and
insightfulness, and asked as tactfully as I could why he
felt it was necessary to take on all of Hinduism's ritualism
and outward appearance -- robes, beads, etc. "If you have
the leaves, why not have the roots too?" He said.
"Hmm. I guess it's all God's will either way." (Petros.)
"Yes I suppose you could put it that way!"

I sort of got the feeling we were talking past each other.
Anyway, here's his website.


You'll recall that Gene earlier spoke:

Okay, now I am on the border of saying something. 'Nondual'
says to me... that the apparency of Maya is a gradient-rich
display, which we observe as we move. The recession of
objects of 'Maya' denotes our movement... into the
(apparent) future, as we face our own past. In other
words... we are moving forward while facing backwards,
viewing a recession of apparent objects. Entropy is apparent
in this backward view. I do not claim that this is 'actual'
but rather apparent. Still, such data is relevant, and as
you say, is not meaningless. Perhaps it offers a clue to
something, like maybe why we face backwards...
The confrontation itself, between being and being, rather
than between
being and Being, is what I point to. The 'finality' (is this
authoritarian factor?) may be resolved by 'Namaste', at
least on one level. How do we turn all those around us, into
gods? Can it be done? Divinity (as useless as this concept
may be) may be more common than apparent.

Antoine, the Quiet Giant, responded:

I enjoy each one of your word Gene, but these two paragraphs
woke up the
face facing the past in the gradient movement of my arrow of
time. In
other words brought memories from thermodynamics to burn.

Looking for a clue to why we face backward, is to me trying
to find out
why fire burns. Which is to me a very legitimate question,
since i am
essentially fire in essence of manifestation. From where
does come this
general tendency for fire to burn, the movement towards
maximum entropy,
the arrow of time? Why is it not a fully reversible process?
This web in
which our face, facing backward, is cough...

Why does not fire generate wood from air, like bees and
flowers generate
honey from the sun? Do bees live a deeper state of namaste
between each
other, than the molecules of dead wood do?, or maybe humans

It does seems that in a community of Namaste, from the very
basic level
of energy consumption, that each actions, or spark of fire,
"produce" "more", so that the "face" of the "community" may
turn itself
like a glove, outside in (or inside out), and come to create
direction in which it looks.

top of page


Nonduality: The Varieties of Expression Home

Jerry Katz
photography & writings

The wind carves shapes into the beach sand

Search over 5000 pages on Nonduality: