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Antoine and Gloria wrote;

Antoine:
...
Why does not fire generate wood from air, like bees and flowers
generate
honey from the sun? Do bees live a deeper state of namaste
between each
other, than the molecules of dead wood do?, or maybe humans do?

It does seems that in a community of Namaste, from the very basic
level
of energy consumption, that each actions, or spark of fire, those
"produce" "more", so that the "face" of the "community" may turn
itself
like a glove, outside in (or inside out), and come to create the
direction in which it looks.

Thoughts like this,

Antoine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Glo: Ahh yes, does the harmony of bees far exceed that of
humans..yet it may be we distill a rarer nectar than honey.
Thoughts like yours, Antoine, remind me of that. What generates
this spark from Gene to you to me is more mysterious than fire
generating wood out of air would be. And is why I am loving your
questions more than any answer yet heard. Your questions about a
face, our face, reversing the web of time like turning a glove
inside out, to create a new direction...such a lovely dream..what
possibilities. Here is a bee poem for all us dreamers..


Last night, as I was sleeping
I dreamt - marvelous error! -
that I had a beehive
here inside my heart.
And the golden bees
were making white combs
and sweet honey
from my old failures.


by Antonio Machado
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Antoine:

Jumping like a butterfly from one flower to the other flower. I'm
jumping from one heart to the same heart of a different "kaleidoscopic
form".

"The fire of my love blazes through
The crystal of my heart.
Just picture the colorful patterns of the fiery flames.
Just imagine the heat of the fire's brilliant blaze.

When that fire of love is reflected through
The crystal of my heart,
You can imagine what its glory must be
And how divine a sight it is.

You know my love exists for you;
And when you touch it,
It's patterns sweep through my entire being;

Every pore of my body is a spark of love for you."

Gurumayi Chidvilasananda
==========================================================

Here are a few excerpts from a long conversation between Kristi and Gloria;

Kristi:
I am beyond thinking I can fix anything or anyone, but I am not
beyond
thinking I should be available to appreciate, affirm, recognize
when someone
is in my presence who needs that....but as you say, it is I who
need that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gloria:
For now, I think the most "nondual" approach is to just allow
whatever is coming up for you now into awareness..there's
sometimes a tendency on the list for people to outdo one another
in being the most nondual..which may be why my "contrariness"
rebels and insists on the ordinariness of day to day life
experiences. I've had my share of mystical awareness, too. :)
I'm just for being real, and I like your honesty. Fuck whether its
"politically correct" or nondual or whatever.. what is coming up now??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kristi:
I think the ordinariness of everyday life IS spiritual and if
our practice does not affect that then it is
pointless mental masturbation...

... I think that the personal is sublime and the tedious
and ugly are seeds too, I think I'll stay in public view...
it's a form of honesty for me...I've been hiding for too long,
pretending, it feels good to stand up and say
this is the way it is for me.
==============================================

Definitions of ego;

PhamDLuan wrote:

Can anyone give an exact definition of the term "ego" as well
as its history.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Greg Goode:

My favorite two definitions are:

It is an idea we have of ourselves.
--Wayne Dyer

It is an object that is perceived, like a tree.
--Jean Klein
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ivan:
Ego is the sense of Me-ness. It envolves identification
with thought, and the result is a sense of being separate from
tottality as an inner entity/observer, that is perpetuated through
a drive in becoming in time (usualy better). It also brings with it
the false assumption of *I know*.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Aleks:

ego is
and isn't
things we did last summer, tragic pet deaths, reruns of gilligan's island,
someone i used to know, a broken lawnmower, someone who defined me, a way i

self-defined,
ego is a wierd window: porthole or panoramic. ego is and isn't. ego is a
grease spot on the garage floor of life.
ego is
a poptart
in a universe with no toaster
ego is that old jacket i used to have, my memories good and bad, my terror,
my joy
ego is the person i'm gonna be when i get there, ego is a street that
curves,
stops, goes both ways or dead ends on command--ego is a little big word
that's fun to toss out at parties, ego is one of those marvelous but useless

broccoli rubber bands, ego is everything i've ever needed, wanted,
justified,
seperated, picked up ,discarded, had sex with, sorted, had drycleaned,
bought, sold, lent, given, lost, or thrown away. ego is a bad hair day
which
sometimes finds a hat or a buzz clipper. ego is a velvet elvis at a van
gogh
exhibition.

ego is the only thing that has ever made me cry.

ego never was freedom.

my best friend,
my worst enemy,
a rapist,
a liar,
a clown.

egoschmeego.

ego promises
ego regrets
ego names
ego says you're born
ego names you weary dead .


leggo my ego
and now
ego nudges me here
or on my way to the moon. . .
ego closes my eyes and opens ears. . .then, nothingness realizes
its own nonexistence. . .
i have looked in the package which contains us and *everything.*
ego wasn't in there.
and here,
how can nothing stand in the way?
ego is and isn't :)
love aleks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jan:

I would define "ego" as inertia. When a wheel is at rest, it is easy to
move it. But when it rotates, it has a momentum "of its own" that will
prevent it from changing direction. Once set in motion, it will keep
spinning, sometimes accellerating, sometimes descellerating. A successfull
yogi is one who pulls the break so that the wheel stops spinning.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xan:

I have seen and felt
what I call ego
as a contraction.
Beingness is sky-like,
having no "things".
When I see and feel like sky
I have no things
and no qualities
I am as no thing.

I saw today
that my ego began
as a movement
in pure expansiveness,
I imagined a "step back"
to see myself.
In seeing myself
there was a moment
of hesitation
and in that moment of imagining
all forms of all things appeared.

Even in the ensuing world of forms
I can let the holding of myself separate
to fall back -
like a wave falls back into the sea.
With that falling back
issues, problems, ideas, separation disappear.
Out of habit
this contraction/holding reappears,
then disappears again
as I notice the holding
and stop.

Ego is the effort of holding
so familiar to us now
we don't notice.

Yet in contrast to just being
it is all the effort there is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kristi:

Dear Ego queriers:

A Course In Miracles describes the ego as: "the false idea that we are
separate."
==========================================================

Further discussion of ego;


Marcia wrote:

The ego construct is operational.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Greg wrote:

What do you mean? That the ego really does something? Is it really any
different in its relation
to our true nature from any other object? Is it different from the
Empire State Building or the
cup of tea at your elbow, or the most sublime meditative state? Isn't
it is an object that arises
from consciousness, and subsides back into consciousness? There are
beliefs that arise that
attribute lots of doing and responsibility to the ego. But those
beliefs themselves are just objects
that arise and fall, are they not?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Marcia:
All I am saying is that it isn't an object. It is a verb not a noun.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Greg:
I see what you are saying. But a verb is an object too. Not a physical
object, but an object in the
sense of being an appearance. Becoming and moving and transforming and
changing and identifying
are all objects because they all arise. (Even arising is an object.) But I
think that these verb-like
objects are lighter and less subject to identification and belief than nouns
(or their referents).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Marcia:
I think that the first step in awakening is identification with something
which life has not programmed me to identify with. Perhaps
even identification with the sense of Presence rather than the
sense of self translated as "me". Perhaps then the second
death is the death of the identification with the sense of Presence.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Greg:
Great point! And this is a succinct road-map of how formal advaita vedanta
takes this path.
Identifying with things that are ever more subtle until there is no
identification left. The aspirant is
taught not to identify with the physical body (if they are a good student,
what results is identification
with the emotions or "manas."). Then it is taught that we aren't the manas
(what results is
identification with the intellect). Then it is taught that we aren't the
intellect (what results is
identification with the blissful Presence). This is the last to go.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Skye:

Skye can't help but wonder whether we go full circle. Could
there be a blissful presence unimaginable via any psychological
identity that is here in front of our face, so close it is our face?
Could this *actual* moment *now* (experienced as this lively sensate
body) BE this entity's *actual freedom*. Without the need for any
ego or 'I' identity, without any concept of nonduality or
duality.

This brain observes an Actual Universe which has
intelligence beyond my wildest dreams. If I surrender all my
concepts of *it* and *me* will this Absent Presence be truly united
with IT right here right n o w....has it always been so but I chose
my limited human intelligence instead. And is there a fear of this,
that my body will awaken to sensations I never
dreamed possible, sensations that I have been programmed not to
identify with?
And why not come ALIVE in the BODY of this infinite, trip the
light fantastic,
universe? What fire burning latent with me beyond all human
conceptual passions, must be fanned, was perhaps fanned by our
creator, to bring about Freedom in Actuality.

When Marcia wrote "I think that the first step in awakening is
identification with something which life has not programmed me to
identify with."

...I pondered, is this identification with
something Marcia called life, what humanity has been programming
itself *not* to identify with...could it be...am I this...actual
here and now sensate bodily
universe! No conceptual identity acknowledgment necessary. Am I here
to inflame the essential sensate character of this dimension, after
all the galactic mental trips, am I already seamlessly integrated
with the substance of each plane my Absent Presence resides in and
am I actually here to learn to *let go* ancient non actual
conceptual fantasies about "TAT" therefore freeing the life force to
live fully and deeply within this wondrous realm. Do I have the
courage? Could this bring freedom from all mental human conditions
and it's resultant physical numbness, could this bring unimaginable
blissful peace to the earthly body.
===========================================================

Tomas asked about nondual education and Gene answered;

Tomas:
<snipped>
To get the ball rolling- I'm presenting the following questions:

1- what is the meaning of true education? how should the child be taught?
What is being done currently?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gene:
3 Questions here...

I can only say, that now the process of 'teaching' is aimed at (deliberate
statement) a hypothetical 'person' who is hoped to be an ideal dweller
within the world-dream. It is the creation of this ideal hypothetical
person which is the goal; no other ideals are allowed or admitted. Further,
the ideal education-created hypothetical person, will view other people as
_hypothetical_, rather than real. This viewpoint, as cultivated
successfully now, allows each person to be hypothetical, and to treat
others as hypothetical. Each person is thus made to be simply, a container
for what-ever idealism is currently popular or expedient. (see the
phenomenon of the 'fad' and of 'belief'). Teaching children to be an
obedient container for ideals, is the goal, and the current 'system' is set
up to do only that.

As to 'what is the meaning of true education/how should the child be
taught?', education _should_ help the child create 'healthy ego', a
profound sense of individual boundaries, respect, patience, tolerance. This
must be interwoven with any other 'teaching' of subjects. 'No-harm' style
of teaching must be employed, wherein the teachers are not only ready to
instruct, but to own and if necessary apologize for their
boundary-infringing behaviours, conducted against students inadvertantly.
Only by exampling, very deliberately, this combination of humility and
genius, can humility and genius be 'taught'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tomas:
2- How can current technology participate in supporting the process of true

education? (How can the internet?)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gene:
Connecting to greater, more skilled and experienced persons... admitting
that we are all yet in school, and pointing without any embarassment _at
all_ to those more competent, is the appropriate use of the internet. Many
years ago, individuals would go on a years-long pilgrimage to the
universitas of the teachers of renown, devote years of time to study, live
in poverty for the priviage of learning from the best in the world. Now, it
is available via one mouse-click.
<snipped>
Our universal Pedagogue is at hand, to clear the way
for those who can see through
the dust-storm of the world-dream.
==============================================================

Gene replies to Antoine who replied to Gene:



==Gene Poole== wrote:

Okay, now I am on the border of saying something. 'Nondual' says to me...
that the apparency of Maya is a gradient-rich display, which we observe as
we move. The recession of objects of 'Maya' denotes our movement... into
the (apparent) future, as we face our own past. In other words... we are
moving forward while facing backwards, viewing a recession of apparent
objects. Entropy is apparent in this backward view. I do not claim that
this is 'actual' but rather apparent. Still, such data is relevant, and as
you say, is not meaningless. Perhaps it offers a clue to something, like
maybe why we face backwards...

(Snip)

The confrontation itself, between being and being, rather than between
being and Being, is what I point to. The 'finality' (is this the
authoritarian factor?) may be resolved by 'Namaste', at least on one level.
How do we turn all those around us, into gods? Can it be done? Divinity (as
useless as this concept may be) may be more common than apparent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Antoine:
I enjoy each one of your word Gene, but these two paragraphs woke up the
face facing the past in the gradient movement of my arrow of time. In
other words brought memories from thermodynamics to burn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gene:
Greetings, friend Antoine...

After a careful reading of your webpages, I see that you are indeed aware
of the esoterica of thermodynamics. This is a rare attribute among people,
to see physics in terms of 'spirituality'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Antoine:
Looking for a clue to why we face backward, is to me trying to find out
why fire burns. Which is to me a very legitimate question, since i am
essentially fire in essence of manifestation. From where does come this
general tendency for fire to burn, the movement towards maximum entropy,
the arrow of time? Why is it not a fully reversible process? This web in
which our face, facing backward, is caught...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gene:
Allow me to just ramble here. We face backwards 'because' what we would
otherwise face is the event-horizon of 'death', the sole predictable
singularity in life... or so it is promoted in world-dream belief and
teachings. For world-dream humans, the future is 'death'... but for those
(Nagualists, nondualists) few who fall outside of the artificial limits of
the world-dream, navigation does not include death as a signifcant
landmark. Thus, facing the 'future' is possible, and is taught as 'Tantra'
via the school of Vajrayana (which is built not only upon Buddhism, but
also upon a more ancient foundation, that of the 'Nagualism' of Bon-Po, or
as it is called. "The Way of Seeing"). It is possible to live... without
the classical definitions of life and death; to do so, may put one at odds
with the enforcers of the world-dream. That is when things become very
'interesting' in a social context, and that is why hermitism/Shamanism is
still a very rare flower to be seen blooming among the thorns.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Antoine:
Why does not fire generate wood from air, like bees and flowers generate
honey from the sun? Do bees live a deeper state of namaste between each
other, than the molecules of dead wood do?, or maybe humans do?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gene:
According to the ancients... all of 'reality' (as treated by physics) is
merely degenerate light; that is to say, that from light comes not only
fire, but also movement (relativity), space, water, ash (earth). We
observe, as you know, from a present which still emanates from that light,
but this simple fact is lost upon most observers. Entropy is the activity
of degeneration of light, the return to light, via the myriad paths of
matter (elements) and energy.

Living biological Beings use the power of _accelleration of entropy_ for
the business of creation, of honey or anything else. Organization here, is
at the expense of organization elsewhere. Eating/digesting/anabolism is at
the expense of the envirionment; we build by destroying. It is however,
only the 'binding energy' which we actually expoit. Matter itself is
symptomatic of the existence of binding energy; the Being uses binding
energy released via the reactor of digestion to sustain itself, the body is
'simply' the slow-motion outflow of what was destroyed, or 'degenerate
light'.

Eventually, long-wave infrared heat is consumed by the great singularity,
to be once again boosted in activity to photonic and beyond. This long,
seemingly eternal gradient is the _stretched single point of Being_. The
mind of the human creates 'time' as a _justification_ for what is observed,
but the concept of 'time' thus disguises the reality which entropy reveals
to physicists. We seek to remove that disguise, yes?

This is why I object to platitudinous 'explanations' which seek to reduce
it all to slogans and beliefs and standards (even the standards of
'nondualism') through which to see. It is only by facing forward into the
future/unknown that direct vision of our power of creation, the highest
Siddhe, can be recognized and thus used responsibly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Antoine:
It does seems that in a community of Namaste, from the very basic level
of energy consumption, that each actions, or spark of fire, those
"produce" "more", so that the "face" of the "community" may turn itself
like a glove, outside in (or inside out), and come to create the
direction in which it looks.

Thoughts like this,

Antoine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gene:
Well-thought, Antoine. Yes... we have innate power of creation, and can
learn to use it wisely. We can, through various means, deliver guidance and
teaching and encouragement to others. Sometimes this can be experienced as
a 'shock', by the student. It is what the student _reaches for in reaction
to that shock_ which is the significant, telling evidence of just how the
student is already conditioned, and of what thus must be unlearned, before
the student may be able to face the raw unknown without pulling a rabbit
out of the hat of imagination/conditioning. Our world-dream is literally
crawling with such imagined-into-reality rabbits, a factor which is itself
revealing of our power of creation.

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