The Supreme, the Mind and the Body
From what you told us it appears that you are not quite
conscious of your
To us you seem extremely alert and active. We cannot possibly
believe that you are
a kind of hypnotic state, which leaves no memory behind. On
the contrary, your memory seems
How are we to understand your statement that the world and all
it includes does not exist,
far as you are concerned.
It is all a matter of focus. Your mind is focussed in the
world, mine is focussed in reality. It
like the moon in daylight -- when the sun shines, the moon is
hardly visible. Or, watch how you
your food. As long as it is in your mouth, you are conscious
of it; once swallowed, it does not
you any longer. It would be troublesome to have it constantly
in mind until it is eliminated.
mind should be normally in abeyance -- incessant activity is a
morbid state. The universe works
itself -- that I know. What else do I need to know?
So a jnani knows what he is doing only when he turns his mind
to it; otherwise he just acts,
The average man is not conscious of his body as such. He is
conscious of his sensations,
and thoughts. Even these, once detachment sets in, move away
from the centre of
and happen spontaneously and effortlessly.
What then is in the centre of consciousness?
That which cannot be given name and form, for it is without
quality and beyond consciousness.
may say it is a point in consciousness, which is beyond
consciousness. Like a hole in the paper
both in the paper and yet not of paper, so is the supreme
state in the very centre of
and yet beyond consciousness. It is as if an opening in the
mind through which the
is flooded with light. The opening is not even the light. It
is just an opening.
An opening is just void, absence.
Quite so. From the mind's point of view, it is but an opening
for the light of awareness to enter
mental space. By itself the light can only be compared to a
solid, dense, rocklike, homogeneous
changeless mass of pure awareness, free from the mental
patterns of name and shape.
Is there any connection between the mental space and the
The supreme gives existence to the mind. The mind gives
existence to the body.
And what lies beyond?
Take an example. A venerable Yogi, a master in the art of
longevity, himself over 1000 years
comes to teach me his art. I fully respect and sincerely
admire his achievements, yet all I can
him is: of what use is longevity to me? I am beyond time.
However long a life may be, it is but a
and a dream. In the same way I am beyond all attributes. They
appear and disappear in
light, but cannot describe me. The universe is all names and
forms, based on qualities and their
while I am beyond. The world is there because I am, but I am
not the world.
But you are living in the world!
That's what you say! I know there is a world, which includes
this body and this mind, but I do not
them to be more “mine” than other minds and bodies. They are
there, in time and space,
I am timeless and spaceless.
But since all exists by your light, are you not the creator of
I am neither the potentiality nor the actualisation, nor the
actuality of things. In my light they
and go as the specks of dust dancing in the sunbeam. The light
illumines the specks, but
not depend on them. Nor can it be said to create them. It
cannot be even said to know them.
I am asking you a question and you are answering. Are you
conscious of the question and the
In reality I am neither hearing nor answering. In the world of
events the question happens and
answer happens. Nothing happens to me. Everything just
And you are the witness?
What does witness mean? Mere knowledge. It rained and now the
rain is over. I did not get wet.
know it rained, but I am not affected. I just witnessed the
The fully realised man, spontaneously abiding in the supreme
state, appears to eat, drink and
on. Is he aware of it, or not?
That in which consciousness happens, the universal
consciousness or mind, we call the ether of
All the objects of consciousness form the universe. What is
beyond both, supporting
is the supreme state, a state of utter stillness and silence.
Whoever goes there, disappears. It
unreachable by words, or mind. You may call it God, or
Parabrahman, or Supreme Reality, but
are names given by the mind. It is the nameless, contentless,
effortless and spontaneous
beyond being and not being.
But does one remain conscious?
As the universe is the body of the mind, so is consciousness
the body of the supreme. It is not
but it gives rise to consciousness.
In my daily actions much goes by habit, automatically. I am
aware of the general purpose, but
of each movement in detail. As my consciousness broadens and
deepens, details tend to
leaving me free for the general trends. Does not the same
happens to a
but more so?
On the level of consciousness -- yes. In the supreme state,
no. This state is entirely one and
a single solid block of reality. The only way of knowing it is
to be it. The mind cannot
it. To perceive it does not need the senses; to know it, does
not need the mind.
That is how God runs the world.
God is not running the world.
Then who is doing it?
Nobody. All happens by itself. You are asking the question and
you are supplying the answer.
you know the answer when you ask the question. All is a play
in consciousness. All divisions
illusory. You can know the false only. The true you must
There is the witnessed consciousness and there is the
witnessing consciousness. Is the
There are the two -- the person and the witness, the observer.
When you see them as one, and
beyond, you are in the supreme state. It is not perceivable,
because it is what makes perception
It is beyond being and not being. It is neither the mirror nor
the image in the mirror. It is
is -- the timeless reality, unbelievably hard and solid.
The jnani -- is he the witness or the Supreme?
He is the Supreme, of course, but he can also be viewed as the
But he remains a person?
When you believe yourself to be a person, you see persons
everywhere. In reality there are no
only threads of memories and habits. At the moment of
realisation the person ceases.
remains, but identity is not a person, it is inherent in the
reality itself. The person has no
in itself; it is a reflection in the mind of the witness, the
'I am', which again is a mode of being.
Is the Supreme conscious?
Neither conscious nor unconscious, I am telling you from
Brahma. What is this Pragna?
It is the un-selfconscious knowledge of life itself.
Is it vitality, the energy of life, livingness?
Energy comes first. For everything is a form of energy.
Consciousness is most differentiated in
waking state. Less so in dream. Still less in sleep.
Homogeneous -- in the fourth state. Beyond
the inexpressible monolithic reality, the abode of the jnani.
I have cut my hand. It healed. By what power did it heal?
By the power of life.
What is that power?
It is consciousness. AII is conscious.
What is the source of consciousness?
Consciousness itself is the source of everything.
Can there be life without consciousness?
No, nor consciousness without life. They are both one. But in
reality only the Ultimate is. The
is a matter of name and form. And as long as you cling to the
idea that only what has name and
exists, the Supreme will appear to you non-existing. When you
understand that names and
are hollow shells without any content whatsoever, and what is
real is nameless and
pure energy of life and light of consciousness, you will be at
peace -- immersed in the
silence of reality.
If time and space are mere illusions and you are beyond,
please tell me what is the weather in
York. Is it hot or raining there?
How can I tell you? Such things need special training. Or,
just travelling to New York. I may be
certain that I am beyond time and space, and yet unable to
locate myself at will at some point
time and space. I am not interested enough; I see no purpose
in undergoing a special Yogic
I have just heard of New York. To me it is a word. Why should
I know more than the word
Every atom may be a universe, as complex as ours. Must I know
them all? I can -- if I
In putting the question about the weather in New York, where
did I make the mistake?
The world and the mind are states of being. The supreme is not
a state. It pervades, all states,
it is not a state of something else. It is entirely uncaused,
independent, complete in itself,
time and space, mind and matter.
By what sign do you recognise it?
That's the point that it leaves no traces. There is nothing to
recognise it by. It must be seen
by giving up all search for signs and approaches. When all
names and forms have been
up, the real is with you. You need not seek it. Plurality and
diversity are the play of the mind
Reality is one.
If reality leaves no evidence, there is no speaking about it.
It is. It cannot be denied. It is deep and dark,
mystery beyond mystery. But it is, while all else
Is it the Unknown?
It is beyond both, the known and the unknown. But I would
rather call it the known, than the
For whenever something is known, it is the real that is known.
Is silence an attribute of the real?
This too is of the mind. All states and conditions are of the
What is the place of samadhi?
Not making use of one's consciousness is samadhi. You just
leave your mind alone. You want
neither-from your body nor from your mind.