Death of the Mind is Birth of Wisdom
Before one can realise one's true nature need not one be a person?
Does not the ego
The person is of little use. It is deeply involved in its own
affairs and is completely ignorant
its true being. Unless the witnessing consciousness begins to play
on the person and it becomes
object of observation rather than the subject, realisation is not
feasible. It is the witness that
realisation desirable and attainable.
There comes a point in a person's life when it becomes the witness.
Oh, no. The person by itself will not become the witness. It is like
expecting a cold candle to
burning in the course of time. The person can stay in the darkness
of ignorance forever, unless
flame of awareness touches it.
Who lights the candle?
The Guru. His words, his presence. In India it is very often the
mantra. Once the candle is
the flame will consume the candle.
Why is the mantra so effective?
Constant repetition of the mantra is something the person does not
do for one's own sake. The
is not the person. Just like the candle which does not increase by
Can the person become aware of itself by itself?
Yes, it happens sometimes as a result of much suffering The Guru
wants to save you the
pain. Such is his grace. Even when there is no discoverable outer
Guru, there is always the
the inner Guru, who directs and helps from within. The words 'outer'
and 'inner' are relative
the body only; in reality all is one, the outer being merely a
projection of the inner. Awareness
as if from a higher dimension.
Before the spark is lit and after, what is the difference?
Before the spark is lit there is no witness to perceive the
difference. The person may be
but is not aware of being conscious. It is completely identified
with what it thinks and
and experiences. The darkness that is in it is of its own creation.
When the darkness is
it dissolves. The desire to question is planted by the Guru. In
other words, the
between the person and the witness is as between not knowing and
world seen in consciousness is to be of the nature of consciousness,
when there is harmony
but when activity and passivity (rajas and tamas) appear, they
obscure and distort and you
the false as real.
What can the person do to prepare itself for the coming of the Guru.
The very desire to be ready means that the Guru had come and the
flame is lighted. It may be a
word, or a page in a book; the Guru's grace works mysteriously.
Is there no such thing as self-preparation? We hear so much about
It is not the person that is doing sadhana. The person is in unrest
and resistance to the very
It is the witness that works on the person, on the totality of its
illusions, past, present and future.
How can we know that what you say is true? While it is self
contained and free from inner
how can we know that it is not a product of fertile imagination,
nurtured and enriched
The proof of the truth lies in its effect on the listener.
Words can have a most powerful effect. By hearing, or repeating
words, one can experience
kinds of trances. The listener's experiences may be induced and
cannot be considered as a
The effect need not necessarily be an experience. It can be a change
in character, in
in relationship to people and one's self. Trances and visions
induced by words, or drugs,
any other sensory or mental means are temporary and inconclusive.
The truth of what is said
is immovable and everlasting. And the proof of it is in the
listener, in the deep and permanent
in his entire being. It is not something he can doubt, unless he
doubts his own existence,
is unthinkable. When my experience becomes your own experience also,
what better proof
The experiencer is the proof of his experience.
Quite, but the experiencer needs no proof. 'I am, and I know I am'.
You cannot ask for further
Can there be true knowledge of things?
Relatively -- yes. Absolutely -- there are no things. To know that
nothing is is true knowledge.
What is the link between the relative and the absolute?
They are identical.
From which point of view are they identical?
When the words are spoken, there is silence. When the relative is
over, the absolute remains.
silence before the words were spoken, is it different from the
silence that comes after? The
is one and without it the words could not have been heard. It is
always there -- at the back of
words. Shift your attention from words to silence and you will hear
it. The mind craves for
the memory of which it takes for knowledge. The jnani is beyond all
experience and his
is empty of the past. He is entirely unrelated to anything in
particular. But the mind craves
formulations and definitions, always eager to squeeze reality into a
verbal shape. Of everything it
an idea, for without ideas the mind is not. Reality is essentially
alone, but the mind will not
it alone -- and deals instead with the unreal. And yet it is all the
mind can do -- discover the
And seeing the real as real?
There is no such state as seeing the real. Who is to see what? You
can only be the real -- which
are, anyhow. The problem is only mental. Abandon false ideas, that
is all. There is no need of
ideas. There aren't any.
Why then are we encouraged to seek the real?
The mind must have a purpose. To encourage it to free itself from
the unreal it is promised
in return. In reality, there is no need of purpose. Being free from
the false is good in
it wants no reward. It is just like being clean -- which is its own
Is not self-knowledge the reward?
The reward of self-knowledge is freedom from the personal self. You
cannot know the knower,
you are the knower. The fact of knowing proves the knower. You need
no other proof. The
of the known is not knowable. Just like the light is known in
colours only, so is the knower
Is the knower an inference only?
You know your body, mind and feelings. Are you an inference only?
I am an inference to others. but not to myself.
So am I. An inference to you, but not to myself. I know myself by
being myself. As you know
to be a man by being one. You do not keep on reminding yourself that
you are a man. It is
when your humanity is questioned that you assert it. Similarly, I
know that I am all. I do not
to keep on repeating: 'I am all, I am all'. Only when you take me to
be a particular, a person, I
As you are a man all the time, so I am what I am -- all the time.
Whatever you are
that you are beyond all doubt.
When I ask how do you know that you are a jnani, you answer: 'I find
no desire in me. Is this
Were I full of desires, I would have still been what I am.
Myself, full of desires and you, full of desires; what difference
would there be?
You identify yourself with your desires and become their slave. To
me desires are things among
things, mere clouds in the mental sky, and I do not feel compelled
to act on them.
The knower and his knowledge, are they one or two?
They are both. The knower is the unmanifested, the known is the
manifested. The known is
on the move, it changes, it has no shape of its own, no dwelling
place. The knower is the
support of all knowledge; Each needs the other, but reality lies
beyond. The jnani
be known, because there is nobody to be known. When there is a
person, you can tell something
it, but when there is no self-identification with the particular,
what can be said? You may tell a
anything; his question will always be: 'about whom are you talking?
There is no such person'.
as you cannot say anything about the universe because it includes
everything, so nothing can
said about a jnani, for he is all and yet nothing in particular. You
need a hook to hang your
on; when there is no hook, on what will the picture hang? To locate
a thing you need space,
place an event you need time; but the timeless and spaceless defies
all handling. It makes
perceivable, yet itself it is beyond perception. The mind cannot
know what is beyond the
but the mind is known by what is beyond it. The jnani knows neither
birth nor death; existence
non-existence are the same to him.
When your body dies, you remain.
Nothing dies. The body is just imagined. There is no such thing.
Before another century will pass, you will be dead to all around
you. Your body will be covered
flowers, then burnt and the ashes scattered. That will be our
experience. What will be yours?
Time will come to an end. This is called the Great Death
(mahamrityu), the death of time.
Does it mean that the universe and its contents will come to an end?
The universe is your personal experience. How can it be affected?
You might have been
a lecture for two hours; where has it gone when it is over? It has
merged into silence in
the beginning, middle and end of the lecture are all together. Time
has come to a stop, it was,
is no more. The silence after a life of talking and the silence
after a life of silence is the same
Immortality is freedom from the feeling: 'I am'. Yet it is not
extinction. On the contrary, it is a
infinitely more real, aware and happy than you can possibly think
of. Only self-consciousness
Why does the Great Death of the mind coincide with the 'small death'
of the body?
It does not! You may die a hundred deaths without a break in the
mental turmoil. Or, you may
your body and die only in the mind. The death of the mind is the
birth of wisdom.
The person goes and only the witness remains.
Who remains to say: 'I am the witness'. When there is no 'I am',
where is the witness? In the
state there is no self to take refuge in.
man who carries a parcel is anxious not to lose it -- he is
parcel-conscious. The man who
the feeling 'I am' is self-conscious. The jnani holds on to nothing
and cannot be said to be
And yet he is not unconscious. He is the very heart of awareness. We
call him digambara
clothed in space, the Naked One, beyond all appearance. There is no
name and shape under
he may be said to exist, yet he is the only one that truly is.
I cannot grasp it.
Who can? The mind has its limits. It is enough to bring you to the
very frontiers of knowledge
make you face the immensity of the unknown. To dive in it is up to
What about the witness? Is it real or unreal?
It is both. The last remnant of illusion, the first touch of the
real. To say: I am only the witness is
false and true: false because of the 'I am', true because of the
witness. It is better to say: 'there
witnessing'. The moment you say: 'I am', the entire universe comes
into being along with its
Another question: can we visualise the person and the self as two
brothers small and big? The
brother is mischievous and selfish, rude and restless, while the big
brother is intelligent and
reasonable and considerate, free from body consciousness with its
desires and fears. The big
knows the little one. but the small one is ignorant of the big one
and thinks itself to be
on its own. The Guru comes and tells the smaller one: 'You are not
alone, you come from a
good family, your brother is a very remarkable man, wise and kind,
and he loves you very
Remember him, think of him, find him, serve him, and you will become
one with him'. Now,
question is are there two in us, the personal and the individual,
the false self and the true self, or
it only a simile?
It is both. They appear to be two, but on investigation they are
found to be one. Duality lasts
as long as it is not questioned. The trinity: mind, self and spirit
(vyakti, vyakta, avyakta), when
into, becomes unity. These are only modes of experiencing: of
attachment, of detachment,
Your assumption that we are in a dream state makes your position
we raise, you just deny its validity. One cannot discuss with you!
The desire to discuss is also mere desire. The desire to know, to
have the power, even the
to exist are desires only. Everybody desires to be, to survive, to
continue, for no one is sure
himself. But everybody is immortal. You make yourself mortal by
taking yourself to be the body.
Since you have found your freedom, will you not give me a little of
Why little? Take the whole. Take it, it is there for the taking. But
you are afraid of freedom!
Swami Ramdas had to deal with a similar request. Some devotees
collected round him one day
began to ask for liberation. Ramdas listened smilingly and then
suddenly he became serious
said: You can have it, here and now, freedom absolute and permanent.
Who wants it, come
Nobody moved. Thrice he repeated the offer. None accepted. Then he
said: 'The offer is
Attachment destroys courage. The giver is always ready to give. The
taker is absent. Freedom
letting go. People just do not care to let go everything. They do
not know that the finite is the
of the infinite, as death is the price of immortality. Spiritual
maturity lies in the readiness to let
everything. The giving up is the first step. But the real giving up
is in realising that there is
to give up, for nothing is your own. It is like deep sleep -- you do
not give up your bed when
fall sleep -- you just forget it.