Person, Witness and the Supreme
We have a long history of drug-taking behind us, mostly drugs of the
variety. They gave us the experience of other states of
consciousness, high and low, and
the conviction, that drugs are unreliable and, at best, transitory
and, at worst, destructive of
and personality. We are in search of better means for developing
We want the fruits of our search to stay with us and enrich our
lives, instead of
to pale memories and helpless regrets. If by the spiritual we mean
our purpose in coming to India is definitely spiritual. The happy
hippy stage is behind
we are serious now and on the move. We know there is reality to be
found, but we do not know
to find and hold on to it. We need no convincing, only guidance. Can
you help us?
You do not need help, only advice. What you seek is already in you.
Take my own case. I
nothing for my realisation. My teacher told me that the reality is
within me; I looked within and
it there, exactly as my teacher told me. To see reality is as simple
as to see one's face in a
Only the mirror must be clear and true. A quiet mind, undistorted by
desires and fears, free
ideas and opinions, clear on all the levels, is needed to reflect
the reality. Be clear and quiet --
and detached, all else will happen by itself.
You had to make your mind clear and quiet before you could realise
the truth. How did you do
I did nothing. It just happened. I lived my life, attending to my
family's needs. Nor did my Guru
it. It just happened, as he said it will.
Things do not just happen. There must be a cause for everything.
All that happens is the cause of all that happens. Causes are
numberless; the idea of a sole
is an illusion.
You must have been doing something specific -- some meditation or
Yoga. How can you say
realisation will happen on its own?
Nothing specific. I just lived my life.
I am amazed!
So was I. But what was there to be amazed at? My teacher's words
came true. So what? He
me better than I knew myself, that is all. Why search for causes? In
the very beginning I was
some attention and time to the sense 'I am', but only in the
beginning. Soon after my Guru
I lived on. His words proved to be true. That is all. It is all one
process. You tend to separate
in time and then look for causes.
What is your work now? What are you doing?
You imagine being and doing as identical. It is not so. The mind and
the body move and change
cause other minds and bodies to move and change and that is called
doing, action. I see that it
in the nature of action to create further action like fire that
continues by burning. I neither act nor
others to act; I am timelessly aware of what is going on.
In your mind, or also in other minds?
There is only one mind, which swarms with ideas; 'I am this, I am
that, this is mine, that is mine'.
am not the mind, never was, nor shall be.
How did the mind come into being?
The world consists of matter, energy and intelligence. They manifest
themselves in many ways.
and imagination create the world and intelligence reconciles the two
and causes a sense of
and peace To me it all happens; I am aware, yet unaffected.
You cannot be aware, yet unaffected. There is a contradiction in
terms. Perception is change.
you have experienced a sensation, memory will not allow you to
return to the former state.
Yes, what is added to memory cannot be erased easily. But it can
surely be done and, in fact, I
doing it all the time. Like a bird on its wings, I leave no
Has the witness name and form, or is it beyond these?
The witness is merely a point in awareness. It has no name and form.
It is like the reflection of
sun in a drop of dew. The drop of dew has name and form, but the
little point of light is caused
the sun. The clearness and smoothness of the drop is a necessary
condition but not sufficient by
Similarly clarity and silence of the mind are necessary for the
reflection of reality to appear in
mind, but by themselves they are not sufficient. There must be
reality beyond it. Because reality
timelessly present, the stress is on the necessary conditions.
Can it happen that the mind is clear and quiet and yet no reflection
There is destiny to consider. The unconscious is in the grip of
destiny, it is destiny, in fact. One
have to wait. But however heavy may be the hand of destiny, it can
be lifted by patience and
Integrity and purity remove the obstacles and the vision of reality
appears in the mind.
How does one gain self-control? I am so weak-minded!
Understand first that you are not the person you believe yourself to
be. What you think yourself
be is mere suggestion or imagination. You have no parents, you were
not born, nor will you die.
trust me when I tell you so, or arrive to it by study and
investigation. The way of total faith is
the other is slow but steady. Both must be tested in action. Act on
what you think is true --
is the way to truth.
Are deserving the truth and destiny one and the same?
Yes, both are in the unconscious. Conscious merit is mere vanity.
Consciousness is always of
when there are no obstacles, one goes beyond it.
Will the understanding that I am not the body give me the strength
of character needed for self-
When you know that you are neither body nor mind, you will not be
swayed by them. You will
truth, wherever it takes you, and do what needs be done, whatever
the price to pay.
Is action essential for self-realisation?
For realisation, understanding is essential. Action is only
incidental. A man of steady
will not refrain from action. Action is the test of truth.
Are tests needed?
If you do not test yourself all the time, you will not be able to
distinguish between reality and
Observation and close reasoning help to some extent, but reality is
paradoxical. How do you
that you have realised unless you watch your thoughts and feelings,
words and actions and
at the changes occurring in you without your knowing why and how? It
is exactly because
are so surprising that you know that they are real. The foreseen and
expected is rarely true.
How does the person come into being?
Exactly as a shadow appears when light is intercepted by the body,
so does the person arise
pure self-awareness is obstructed by the 'I-am-the-body' idea. And
as the shadow changes
and position according to the lay of the land, so does the person
appear to rejoice and suffer,
and toil, find and lose according to the pattern of destiny. When
the body is no more, the
disappears completely without return, only the witness remains and
the Great Unknown.
witness is that which says 'I know'. The person says 'I do'. Now, to
say 'I know' is not untrue -- it
merely limited. But to say 'I do' is altogether false, because there
is nobody who does; all
by itself, including the idea of being a doer.
Then what is action?
The universe is full of action, but there is no actor. There are
numberless persons small and big
very big, who, through identification, imagine themselves as acting,
but it does not change the
that the world of action (mahadakash) is one single whole in which
all depends on, and affects
The stars affect us deeply and we affect the stars. Step back from
action to consciousness,
action to the body and the mind; it is their domain. Remain as pure
witness, till even
dissolves in the Supreme.
a thick jungle full of heavy timber. A plank is shaped out of the
timber and a small pencil to
on it. The witness reads the writing and knows that while the pencil
and the plank are distantly
to the jungle, the writing has nothing to do with it. It is totally
super-imposed and its
just does not matter. The dissolution of personality is followed
always by a sense of
relief, as if a heavy burden has fallen off.
When you say, I am in the state beyond the witness, what is the
experience that makes you say
In what way does it differ from the stage of being a witness only?
It is like washing printed cloth. First the design fades, then the
background and in the end the
is plain white. The personality gives place to the witness, then the
witness goes and pure
remains. The cloth was white in the beginning and is white in the
end; the patterns and
just happened -- for a time.
Can there be awareness without an object of awareness?
Awareness with an object we called witnessing. When there is also
self-identification with the
caused by desire or fear, such a state is called a person. In
reality there is only one state;
distorted by self-identification it is called a person, when
coloured with the sense of being, it is
witness; when colourless and limitless, it is called the Supreme.
I find that I am always restless, longing, hoping, seeking, finding,
again. What is it that keeps me on the boil?
You are really in search of yourself, without knowing it. You are
love-longing for the love-worthy,
perfectly lovable. Due to ignorance you are looking for it in the
world of opposites and
When you find it within, your search will be over.
There will be always this sorrowful world to contend with.
Don't anticipate. You do not know. It is true that all manifestation
is in the opposites. Pleasure
pain, good and bad, high and low, progress and regress, rest and
strife they all come and go
-- and as long as there is a world, its contradictions will be
there. There may also be
of perfect harmony, of bliss and beauty, but only for a time. What
is perfect, returns to the
of all perfection and the opposites play on.
How am I to reach perfection?
Keep quiet. Do your work in the world, but inwardly keep quiet. Then
all will come to you. Do not
on your work for realisation. It may profit others, but not you.
Your hope lies in keeping silent in
mind and quiet in your heart. realised people are very quiet.