97.
Mind and the World are not Separate
Questioner:
I see here pictures of several saints and I am told that they are
your spiritual
ancestors.
Who are they and how did it all begin?
Nisargadatta:
We are called collectively the 'Nine Masters'. The legend says that
our first teacher was
Rishi
Dattatreya, the great incarnation of the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu
and Shiva. Even the 'Nine
Masters'
(Navnath) are mythological.
Questioner:
What is the peculiarity of their teaching?
Nisargadatta:
Its simplicity, both in theory and practice.
Questioner:
How does one become a Navnath? By initiation or by succession?
Nisargadatta:
Neither. The ‘Nine Masters' tradition, Navnath Parampara, is like a
river -- it flows into the ocean
of
reality and whoever enters it is carried along.
Questioner:
Does it imply acceptance by a living master belonging to the same
tradition?
Nisargadatta:
Those who practise the sadhana of focussing their minds on ‘I am'
may feel related to others
who
have followed the same sadhana and succeeded. They may decide to
verbalise their sense of
kinship
by calling themselves Navnaths. It gives them the pleasure of
belonging to an established
tradition.
Questioner:
Do they in any way benefit by joining?
Nisargadatta:
The circle of satsang, the 'company of saints', expands in numbers
as time passes.
Questioner:
Do they get hold thereby of a source of power and grace from which
they would have been
barred
otherwise?
Nisargadatta:
Power and grace are for all and for the asking. Giving oneself a
particular name does not help.
Call
yourself by any name -- as long as you are intensely mindful of
yourself, the accumulated
obstacles
to self-knowledge are bound to be swept away.
Questioner:
If I like your teaching and accept your guidance, can I call myself
a Navnath?
Nisargadatta:
Please your word-addicted mind! The name will not change you. At
best it may remind you to
behave.
There is a succession of Gurus and their disciples, who in turn
train more disciples and
thus
the line is maintained. But the continuity of tradition is informal
and voluntary. It is like a family
name,
but here the family is spiritual.
Questioner:
Do you have to realise to join the Sampradaya?
Nisargadatta:
The Navnath Sampradaya is only a tradition, a way of teaching and
practice. It does not denote
a
level of consciousness. If you accept a Navnath Sampradaya teacher
as your Guru, you join his
Sampradaya.
Usually you receive a token of his grace -- a look, a touch, or a
word, sometimes a
vivid
dream or a strong remembrance. Sometimes the only sign of grace is a
significant and rapid
change
in character and behaviour.
Questioner:
I know you now for some years and I meet you regularly. The thought
of you is never far from
my
mind. Does it make me belong to your Sampradaya?
Nisargadatta:
Your belonging is a matter of your own feeling and conviction. After
all, it is all verbal and
formal.
In reality there is neither Guru nor disciple, neither theory nor
practice, neither ignorance nor
realisation.
It all depends on what you take yourself to be. Know yourself
correctly. There is no
substitute
to self-knowledge.
Questioner:
What proof will I have that I know myself correctly?
Nisargadatta:
You need no proofs. The experience is unique and unmistakable. It
will dawn on you suddenly,
when
the obstacles are removed to some extent. It is like a frayed rope
snapping. Yours is to work
at
the strands. The break is bound to happen. It can be delayed, but
not prevented.
Questioner:
I am confused by your denial of causality. Does it mean that none is
responsible for the world
as
it is?
Nisargadatta:
The idea of responsibility is in your mind. You think there must be
something or somebody
solely
responsible for all that happens. There is a contradiction between a
multiple universe and a
single
cause. Either one or the other must be false. Or both. As I see it,
it is all day-dreaming. There
is
no reality in ideas. The fact is that without you, neither the
universe nor its cause could have
come
into being.
Questioner:
I cannot make out whether I am the creature or the creator of the
universe.
Nisargadatta:
'I am' is an ever-present fact, while 'I am created' is an idea.
Neither God nor the universe have
come
to tell you that they have created you. The mind obsessed by the
idea of causality invents
creation
and then wonders 'who is the creator?' The mind itself is the
creator. Even this is not quite
true,
for the created and its creator are one. The mind and the world are
not separate. Do
understand
that what you think to be the world is your own mind.
Questioner:
Is there a world beyond, or outside the mind?
Nisargadatta:
All space and time are in the mind. Where will you locate a
supramental world? There are many
levels
of the mind and each projects its own version, yet all are in the
mind and created by the mind.
Questioner:
What is your attitude to sin? How do you look at a sinner, somebody
who breaks the law, inner
or
outer? Do you want him to change or you just pity him? Or, are you
indifferent to him because of
his
sins?
Nisargadatta:
I know no sin, nor sinner. Your distinction and valuation do not
bind me. Everybody behaves
according
to his nature. It cannot be helped, nor need it be regretted.
Questioner:
Others suffer.
Nisargadatta:
Life lives on life. In nature the process is compulsory, in society
it should be voluntary. There
can
be no life without sacrifice. A sinner refuses to sacrifice and
invites death. This is as it is, and
gives
no cause for condemnation or pity.
Questioner:
Surely you feel at least compassion when you see a man steeped in
sin.
Nisargadatta:
Yes, I feel I am that man and his sins are my sins.
Questioner:
Right, and what next?
Nisargadatta:
By my becoming one with him he becomes one with me. It is not a
conscious process, it
happens
entirely by itself. None of us can help it. What needs changing
shall change anyhow;
enough
to know oneself as one is, here and now. Intense and methodical
investigation into one's
mind
is Yoga.
Questioner:
What about the chains of destiny forged by sin?
Nisargadatta:
When ignorance, the mother of sin, dissolves, destiny, the
compulsion to sin again, ceases.
Questioner:
There are retributions to make.
Nisargadatta:
With ignorance coming to an end all comes to an end. Things are then
seen as they are and
they
are good.
Questioner:
If a sinner, a breaker of the law, comes before you and asks for
your grace, what will be your
response?
Nisargadatta:
He will get what he asks for.
Questioner:
In spite of being a very bad man?
Nisargadatta:
I know no bad people, I only know myself. I see no saints nor
sinners, only living beings. I do
not
hand out grace. There is nothing I can give, or deny, which you do
not have already in equal
measure.
Just be aware of your riches and make full use of them. As long as
you imagine that you
need
my grace, you will be at my door begging for it.
My
begging for grace from you would make as little sense! We are not
separate, the real is common.
Questioner:
A mother comes to you with a tale of woe. Her only son has taken to
drugs and sex and is
going
from bad to worse. She is asking for your grace. What shall be your
response?
Nisargadatta:
Probably I shall hear myself telling her that all will be well.
Questioner:
That's all?
Nisargadatta:
That's all. What more do you expect?
Questioner:
But will the son of the woman change?
Nisargadatta:
He may or he may not.
Questioner:
The people who collect round you, and who know you for many years,
maintain that when you
say
'it will be all right' it invariably happens as you say.
Nisargadatta:
You may as well say that it is the mother's heart that saved the
child. For everything there are
innumerable
causes.
Questioner:
I am told that the man who wants nothing for himself is
all-powerful. The entire universe is at
his
disposal.
Nisargadatta:
If you believe so, act on it. Abandon every personal desire and use
the power thus saved for
changing
the world!
Questioner:
All the Buddhas and Rishis have not succeeded in changing the world.
Nisargadatta:
The world does not yield to changing. By its very nature it is
painful and transient. See it as it is
and
divest yourself of all desire and fear. When the world does not hold
and bind you, it becomes
an
abode of joy and beauty. You can be happy in the world only when you
are free of it.
Questioner:
What is right and what is wrong?
Nisargadatta:
Generally, what causes suffering is wrong and what removes it, is
right. The body and the mind
are
limited and therefore vulnerable; they need protection which gives
rise to fear. As long as you
identify
yourself with them you are bound to suffer; realise your
independence and remain happy. I
tell
you, this is the secret of happiness. To believe that you depend on
things and people for
happiness
is due to ignorance of your true nature; to know that you need
nothing to be happy,
except
self-knowledge, is wisdom.
Questioner:
What comes first, being or desire?
Nisargadatta:
With being arising in consciousness, the ideas of what you are arise
in your mind as well as
what
you should be. This brings forth desire and action and the process
of becoming begins.
Becoming
has, apparently, no beginning and no end, for it restarts every
moment. With the
cessation
of imagination and desire, becoming ceases and the being this or
that merges into pure
being,
which is not describable, only experienceable.
The
world appears to you so overwhelmingly real, because you think of it
all the time; cease
thinking
of it and it will dissolve into thin mist. You need not forget; when
desire and fear end,
bondage
also ends. It is the emotional involvement, the pattern of likes and
dislikes which we call
character
and temperament, that create the bondage.
Questioner:
Without desire and fear what motive is there for action?
Nisargadatta:
None, unless you consider love of life, of righteousness, of beauty,
motive enough. Do not be
afraid
of freedom from desire and fear. It enables you to live a life so
different from all you know, so
much
more intense and interesting, that, truly, by losing all you gain
all.
Questioner:
Since you count your spiritual ancestry from Rishi Dattatreya, are
we right in believing that you
and
all your predecessors are reincarnations of the Rishi?
Nisargadatta:
You may believe in whatever you like and if you act on your belief,
you will get the fruits of it; but
to
me it has no importance. I am what I am and this is enough for me. I
have no desire to identify
myself
with anybody, however illustrious. Nor do I feel the need to take
myths for reality. I am only
interested
in ignorance and the freedom from ignorance. The proper role of a
Guru is to dispel
ignorance
in the hearts and minds of his disciples. Once the disciple has
understood, the confirming
action
is up to him. Nobody can act for another. And if he does not act
rightly, it only means that he
has
not understood and that the Guru's work is not over.
Questioner:
There must be some hopeless cases too?
Nisargadatta:
None is hopeless. Obstacles can be overcome. What life cannot mend,
death will end, but the
Guru
cannot fail.
Questioner:
What gives you the assurance?
Nisargadatta:
The Guru and man's inner reality are really one and work together
towards the same goal -- the
redemption
and salvation of the mind They cannot fail. Out of the very boulders
that obstruct them
they
build their bridges. Consciousness is not the whole of being --
there are other levels on which
man
is much more co-operative. The Guru is at home on all levels and his
energy and patience are
inexhaustible.
Questioner:
You keep on telling me that I am dreaming and that it is high time I
should wake up. How does
it
happen that the Maharaj, who has come to me in my dreams, has not
succeeded in waking me
up?
He keeps on urging and reminding, but the dream continues.
Nisargadatta:
It is because you have not really understood that you are dreaming.
This is the essence of
bondage
-- the mixing of the real with unreal. In your present state only
the sense 'I am' refers to
reality;
the 'what' and the 'how I am' are illusions imposed by destiny, or
accident.
Questioner:
When did the dream begin?
Nisargadatta:
It appears to be beginningless, but in fact it is only now. From
moment to moment you are
renewing
it. Once you have seen that you are dreaming, you shall wake up. But
you do not see,
because
you want the dream to continue. A day will come when you will long
for the ending of the
dream,
with all your heart and mind, and be willing to pay any price; the
price will be dispassion and
detachment,
the loss of interest in the dream itself.
Questioner:
How helpless I am. As long as the dream of existence lasts, I want
it to continue. As long as I
want
it to continue, it will last.
Nisargadatta:
Wanting it to continue is not inevitable. See clearly your
condition, your very clarity will release
you.
Questioner:
As long as I am with you, all you say seems pretty obvious; but as
soon as I am away from you
I
run about restless and anxious.
Nisargadatta:
You need not keep away from me, in your mind at least. But your mind
is after the world's
welfare!
Questioner:
The world is full of troubles, no wonder my mind too is full of
them.
Nisargadatta:
Was there ever a world without troubles? Your being as a person
depends on violence to
others.
Your very body is a battlefield, full of the dead and dying.
Existence implies violence.
Questioner:
As a body -- yes. As a human being -- definitely no. For humanity
non-violence is the law of life
and
violence of death.
Nisargadatta:
There is little of non-violence in nature.
Questioner:
God and nature are not human and need not be humane. I am concerned
with man alone. To
be
human I must be compassionate absolutely.
Nisargadatta:
Do you realise that as long as you have a self to defend, you must
be violent?
Questioner:
I do. To be truly human I must be self-less. As long as I am
selfish, I am sub-human, a
humanoid
only.
Nisargadatta:
So, we are all sub-human and only a few are human. Few or many, it
is again 'clarity and
charity'
that make us human. The sub-human -- the 'humanoids' -- are
dominated by tamas
and rajas and the humans by sattva. Clarity and charity is sattva as
it affects mind and action.
But
the real is beyond sattva. Since I have known you, you seem to be
always after helping
the
world. How much did you help?
Questioner:
Not a bit. Neither the world has changed, nor have I. But the world
suffers and I suffer along
with
it. To struggle against suffering is a natural reaction. And what is
civilization and culture,
philosophy
and religion, but a revolt against suffering. Evil and the ending of
evil -- is it not your own
main
preoccupation? You may call it ignorance -- it comes to the same.
Nisargadatta:
Well, words do not matter, nor does it matter in what shape you are
just now. Names and
shapes
change incessantly. Know yourself to be the changeless witness of
the changeful mind.
That
is enough.