Jerry Katz
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Highlights #966

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Tuesday, February 5, 2002


The deep sleep state is with you 24 hours a day. It
is just
that when you wake up the screen is not blank
anymore. Your
daily 'movie' obscures the 'blank screen'. And yes,
you can
learn to be 'aware' when in the deep sleep state.
You can
even see a dream arising and just push it away.
Though you
will have to recover the 'lost' sleep another time.
me, all very scary stuff.

Here is some stuff I unearthed regarding being aware during
the deep sleep state. From Nisargadatta, Aziz Kristof and
Susan Segal. The only reason I can think of that brought
about this deep sleep state awareness for me was that it
was a thorn in my side. I had not accepted the advaidic
arguments about the deep sleep state. My fear was that it
all was in our brains, and that once our brains slept, as
in deep sleep, existence ceased. So, as they say, Ask and
the answer will come! Just make sure you connect

Nisargadatta Maharaj: Awareness is primordial; it is the
original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused,
unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness
is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of
duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness,
but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in
deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is
relative to its content; consciousness is always of
something. Consciousness is partial and changeful,
awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is
the common matrix of every experience. Since it is
awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is
awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore, the
very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement
in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness
takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at
once recognized as the original, basic experience, which is
life itself, and also love and joy. (29)

The mind is discontinuous. Again and again it blanks out,
like in sleep or swoon or distraction. There must be
something continuous to register discontinuity. Memory is
always partial, unreliable and evanescent. It does not
explain the strong sense of identity pervading
consciousness, the sense "I am". Find out what is at the
root of it. (307)

The person merges into the witness, the witness into
awareness, awareness into pure being, yet identity is not
lost, only its limitations are lost. It is transfigured and
becomes the real Self, the sadguru, the eternal friend and
guide. You cannot approach it in worship. No external
activity can reach the inner self; worship and prayers
remain on the surface only; to do deeper meditation is
essential, the striving to go beyond the states of sleep,
dream and waking. In the beginning the attempts are
irregular, then they recur more often, become regular, then
continuous and intense, until all obstacles are conquered.

Aziz Kristof: From the point of view
of one who is in the state of Presence, it feels like an
experience of absolute subjectivity. To prove that this is
so, some practitioners try even to bring this state to the
Sleep State. But this is unwise, for to be aware during
sleep ultimately can create serious imbalance in the
psyche. The presence of awareness during Sleep State
interferes with the natural healing process of our
subconscious. To know when to control and when to let go is
a function of intelligence. There is no need to control the
sleep state, as there is no need to control the moment of
death, when all dissolves into the Source and there is no
force in the universe that can stop it.

Enlightenment does not necessarily bring awareness to the
sleep state. Many seekers unquestioningly adopt the belief
in the necessity of becoming aware of the inner state in
the Sleep State. It is fine for the older masters who have
completed their personal growth. In the case of young
people, bringing awareness to the Sleep State is very
unhealthy. It hinders the natural process of self-healing
and the release of the subconscious mind in the dream
state. The decision as to whether awareness is present in
sleep or not belongs to the Absolute itself. For those who
have shifted to the Absolute State, there is no longer will
operating as far as "being within" is concerned. If we look
more deeply into this idea of being aware in sleep or
controlling the Dream State, what we find is fear. Many
even fear that they will not be aware in the moment of
death. It is madness.

Here, we are entering the mystery of awakening to the
Uncreated. There is a stage of realisation which the Buddha
experienced and later called reaching Nirvana. At this
stage, consciousness merges with that which is prior to
consciousness. The experience of it is like entering a deep
sleep state while remaining fully present. Here, one is
fully present and fully absent. There is no movement in
that state, only absolute stillness exists. The absolute
stillness is the presence of the Uncreated. And the
presence of the Uncreated is the absence of consciousness.
The meeting between these two is called the Absolute State.
The ultimate experience is of non-abidance.

Susan Segal: Walking home from that bus ride, she felt like
a "cloud of awareness" following the body. The cloud was a
witness located behind and to the left of the body and
completely separate from body, mind and emotions. The
witness was constant and so was the fear, the fear of
complete physical dissolution. The witnessing continued for
several months, even during sleep, and Segal had to endure
the fear and the accompanying stress, finding relief in
long and frequent sleeps.



I share your questions,... : "What's the use of such
'enlightenment' ?".

But as you can see, you cannot 'win' over a 'non-dualistic'
Mentality. Paradoxes and concept-permutations, ad infinitum
.. : they say "it's _Your_ problem if you believe there is
such a thing as 'enlightenmnet and love' .. (and yet books
keep on being sold, 'transcendental' web- sites spring up
like mushrooms, and more and more persons declare 'I am
enlightened) .. and You are not... as a matter of fact:
_'You' are an annoying not-yet-grown-up, who is not to be
tolerated at My forum.. because you just do not understand
me.. but an 'enlightened one' like me is qualified to play
the 'divine'-kick-butt game and shower you with 4
letter-words,.. for your own good and out of love,.. but
Not You, you may not do that .. 'cause what do you think..
that you are enlightened/God or something ?! .. bwahahaha
!'. At least, this is basically the message I got, from
some enlightened 'particular lady'.

Like one friend explained to me, that an enlightened
moderator/site- owner, has the right to say :"if you do not
like it, Fu** you.. Exit !,'s My site/game.. I decide
around here and keep the people I like .. !".

So 'Inquiry into Truth', is converted into 'MY'. So,.. Discussion finished. Chess mate.
So, if you think you did not get any straight & direct
answer "it's Your fault.. because you do not understand
that 'it's all illusion'.. and because you are not
enlightened yet, like I am". Double chess mate.

That is more or less, the verbal
map/procedural-prescription, as far as I can see. This is
not to deny the possibility, that some do
'see/understand'.. nor the possibilty that some have become
experts at non-dualistic dialogue an verbiage.. or rather

So if someone asks you 'what are you looking for at my
web-site ?'.. if you reply 'Truth or enlightenment or
transcendence', they might laugh at you. However if you
reply : 'well, I am here to exchange cooking recipees..'
(the like of which, I've seen at some non-dualistic site)
that seems to be considered by the non-dual mentality, as
rather cute and beyond duality.

So if you can learn the 'map'.. you might have a chance to
survive at some sites an be able to avoid instant
deletion,.. but, if you want what the site's declared
intention is, then you are doomed.

Lovely game.
They call it 'divine'..
or nothing special,
or ordinary.
Yes, perhaps very 'ordinary', is right.
So, let's watch TV.



Isn't it a total waste of time trying to decide whether
another person is enlightened? What is going on with that?
What's the use of it? Is there a user? Is that it, a
question of utility, of deciding, can I be of utility to
this one or can this one be of utility to me? Beneath it
all the river runs, clear black water, useless. And am not
I alone the useless one? Not alone

Not I
Not useless
No one



"Isn't it a total waste of time trying to decide whether
another person is enlightened?" --Andrew

Not necessarily. If you were looking at teachers this might
be a consideration.

The waste of time talking about enlightenment is in the
making of a big deal out of it. If you suddenly knew how to
make a million bucks easily, you could do something with
that information.

When clarity informs the mind that the Self is realized,
you really can't do anything with the information. You
might try to tell others about it as long as you're ready
for lots of doubt and criticism. Only the most ambitious or
karmically destined seem to make empires out of their
understanding, but that's getting a lot harder to do




Yes, I like the dot a lot, why not!

The finite “dot” is the archetype of creation. It defines
or expresses itself as itself and by what it is not,
everything else -or infinity. Everything else in creation,
including us, follows this prototype: being both finite and
infinite. This explains the difficulty of using language
and communication in defining things unambiguously, since
everything is both what it is and what it isn’t, both
finite and infinite. This is why the truth of “what is”
-reality, can not be expressed with words. How can a word
define something as itself and at the same time mean
everything else? Pretty confusing, eh. Words can be seen as
the agency of conditioning and why realization arises to
see the meaning of things beyond words.

So take care with your words...





Enlightenment, salvation and the rising sun

ok numnutz, you got a catchy subject there. whatcha going
to do with it? hem and haw and harumph and release other
odious airs? laugh perhaps - what a concept -
enlightenment, apperception, super duper conciousness,
higher states, inter-dimentional understanding.

what a joke! a farce! a tradgedy in the classical sense.

the love of story keeps the story going - it is only story.
fantastical, living, breathing, and miraculous. All of it!

it is all a mind game. wrap your head around whatever makes
your elevator go all the way up. or just buy into whatever
makes your toast come out exactly right. hah! have fun with
it. you have been all along.

get really wrapped up tightly enough in your cozy of
cozies. then look around at this thing we sometimes refer
to as an illusion. is this the kind of game you enjoy
playing? really?

you like war?! buncha dumbshits...grumble..mumble

here, one more time. just for the kid who sits up front and
keeps asking the same damn questions. :-)

there is no difference between the illusion and the
reality. they are they same. and that's the shits, isn't
it? :-)

sounds like a cantakerous old fool just a talking to

that character you are playing is not going to get to be
around forever. you are the universe playing that


however (oh dontcha just love those sneaky little
"howevers"), ahem, however, the setup appears to be that
somehow you forgot. so, there you go. sheesh!

then the next thing you know you are busting your ass
trying to remember. sucker! oops, i mean seeker.

pass the duffnuts and the joe. urp!

oh sure, next you'll be saying that god or God if you
prefer was feeling lonely so He or he if you prefer,
decided to divide up into people and throw a party.

there is peace that surpasses all understanding. find it.
don't take my word for it but this is how you can find that
peace. a workable formula. nah, just something you could

be willing to live one hour of one day with out beliefs or
concepts. just try for a few minutes to let all beliefs go
all concepts pass on by. now, don't get goofy about it.
don't slip off into some polyanna fairy land. go about your
normal routines of work and kids and such. take care of
business as required. as you go about your day and those
thought and emotions arise and demand attention, watch

that's it. that's all you do. treat your inner dialog as it
were something seen on the television screen. be careful
though or this could happen to you.

you start to become so detached from yourself that one day
a little man appears in your conciousness. he looks just
like you only beaten down, miserable and lethargic. when he
sees that you are staring at him he straightens his back,
squares his shoulders, lifts up his chine and asks - why
kill me?

and oh man wow you feel like you just had some kind of
great breakthrough. truly you have - but it is only story.

well i just made that up about the little man. but that
little man is you and is me. if you really want
enlightenment/understanding, go for it.

me, i'll settle for doughnuts and milk served by smiling
happy children. ah yes.

peace, it's not just a state of being, it's a job.

loveya - michael

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Jerry Katz
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