Nonduality: The Varieties of Expression
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The Correspondence Leading to the Formation of the I AM List

this publication has been suggested by Harsha

(Please note that this reports the public correspondence carried by the Kundalini-list. Along with this was a flurry of private messages; it is critical to the history of this list, but so far remains private. The nature of the private correspondence was to clarify its purpose, to invite participation, to determine moderators, to find a home for the list, and to get the list started with a vision in mind and our spirits afire. Lobster's the one who found the home and inspired the initial energy.)

Subject: The Force of Self-Realization

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 00:10:30 EDT

From:  Harsha1MTM <>


Harsha: Often we see and hear people comparing the colors that they see at particular centers, etc. No doubt such discussions are useful for sharing experiences and comparing. In the quest for the Ultimate Reality of the Self, it is always good to ask, "Who am I who sees such a color or have such and such experiences at such and such centers." In other words, the focus should not be allowed to shift from the Seer to the extent that one becomes unconscious and therefore lost in experience. If one finds oneself in superconscious visionary realms sporting with other beings of light and joy, again the aspirant should raise the same question, i.e., "Who am I who enjoys these heavenly or celestial realms." The Shakti path is a path rich with experiences of all types. As long as the focus is on experiences, no matter how grand they may be, the Self cannot be Recognized as the underlying essence and support for the Reality we experience at every level of existence. A Knower of the Self understands the nature of experiences at all levels, including the highest superconscious levels, and remains wholly indifferent. It is only in the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi that the Knower, Knowing, and the Known are realized to be absolutely identical. Here, finally, the Seer Rests in His Own Nature without the least effort or resistance.

Subject: Re: The Force of Self-Realization

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:45:54 -0700

From: Jerry <>

To: Harsha1MTM <>



Your words make more sense than anything, yet they swerve attention from kundalini to Self, which apparently is seen to be more dangerous. I have joined a discussion group here in Halifax, Nova Scotia. People are invited to talk about whatever they wish. And they start-off adamant about their beliefs and experiences with Kundalini, Christianity, Swami this or that, Reincarnation, Vibrations, Buddhism, you name it. All that stuff is fine. The only thing the leaders of the group serve to do is bring discussion inward, to the Self or the I Am. They do it in a way such that you hardly know it is being done. 

Because of the easy-going nature of the group, and because the dynamics of it turn out to be a form of relaxation or stress reduction, members return weekly and are actually willing to approach the Self or I Am.

But almost without exception there is expression of fear, apprehension, doubt, in regard to what group members think will have to be given-up enroute to a communion with or an understanding of the Self or I Am. (Those who are fearless progress quickly, it is said.)

The leaders alleviate fear or apprehension simply by being who they are: friends, successes in their homes and careers, people you hang-out with.That demonstration makes the whole spiritual journey seem not only safe but worthwhile (which many had intuited all along.) 

So, Harsha, it has become clear to me that while there is great support in this list for Kundalini, because many have known and studied it and have incorporated it into their lives -- because it is the Kundalini List! -- the same support for attentiveness to the Self or I Am is not so evident. Perhaps some list members, while fully knowing of the Self, have no need to discuss it; perhaps others have yet to see how that quality of attention becomes integrated into life.

So my question for you -- or anyone -- is "We have some idea of how Kundalini can play itself out in everyday life; how so with knowledge of the Self?"

That is what people want to know. How is it going to help them become sexier, richer, slimmer, healthier? It sounds like selling-out, but, if I have come to know you at all, what you want to communicate is not merely a pleasant reading or a few nice thoughts. You want to get down with The Self like they're getting down with Kundalini. So do I.

If this is not the place to discuss it, and others are interested, perhaps we can take it to a newsgroup.



Subject: Re: The Force of Self-Realization

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:29:13 -0400

From: "Orea de Sa' Hana" <>

To:, kl List <>

I'm game. Where do we start/where do we go from here?




Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 20:46:01 +0100

From:  "Lobster" <>

To: <>, "Harsha1MTM" <>

CC: <>

Dear Jerry, Harsha, Orea and Friends,

This movement away from worshipping transitory psychic and 'snake dependent' mind states is indeed something worthwhile. I feel that there are sufficient people here to create a new forum (non moderated perhaps) on Spirit Web (a free service - if approved). Because of the gross inflation of my own ego, it is probably better that I do not become the moderator (even if unmoderated - someone has to be moderator :-/) I would certainly abuse such power to my own personal agenda. Will some other kind person step forward? If not I am willing to set this up. For now people can send me (privately) their wish to be engaged in this and I will pass on how they see this working to anyone willing to be moderator. However give it a few days so that people can step forward first - then you can email them. Harsha? Jerry? Orea? Willing?

The over inflated


Subject: Re: The Force of Self-Realization

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:31:54 -0700

From: Jerry <>

To: Jan Barendrecht <>


Jan Barendrecht wrote:

"Discussing K. related issues is easy, because it belongs to phenomenology. Discussing issues about Self all too easily leads to sterile, useless arguments like " Self cannot be attained - it is". It is forgotten that this  isn't the viewpoint for one who hasn't experienced it and usually the one with the argument cites it from a book. IMO this is one thing to be avoided. It is also possible that many are perfectly happy with their present status of K. and do not want more."


Thank you for your input. Certainly, those who are happy with their present status are free to keep their attention where it is. From experience, I have to disagree that discussions of the Self lead to sterile conclusions. In purely theoretical discussions, yes, you are correct. But try having that discussion with an executive at some major corporation who has the family, the career, the mortgage, the social imperatives, but who also intuits an inner Self and would like to approach it in a safe environment with people who understand him or her. That is attentional work and it never leads to sterile conclusions. This proposed new list is about real people living real life. Just like the Kundalini list is. Here we have people talking about Kundalini phenomena as they occur at work or in bed with their unwitting mates. The same struggle with The Self, the I Am, occurs at work and in bed. I tell you from experience, there must be very few places where one can discuss that without involvement with some Guru or institution of some sort. I hope you see my point.

Jan wrote:  "Self-realization will make sex and riches irrelevant, as these things cannot add to the experience of everlasting bliss. Because the body has been a loyal servant during the spiritual journey and still can serve others (as seen from the viewpoint of the others), one will take care of it in a responsible but detached way, so it will be slim, strong and healthy. BTW, for a Self-realized one there are no others and detachment is a misnomer. There is nothing left to detach from (showing how easy it is to get into a sterile discussion)."

Jerry wrote: Yes, I see. How do you communicate that to someone so that it is part of every instant of their life? How do your words actually bring one to the Self? In other words, you have said it, how do you impart it? That is the challenge of the proposed new list. The new list will be driven by a practical, not a theoretical approach. The theoretical approach has a sterile ending, while the practical deals with the realities of life.

Jan wrote: "As K. can be seen as a ticket to bliss everlasting, discussing Self-realization in relation to K. would make sense to me. Discussing issues about Self only can easily lead to philosophical hairsplitting or controversies with other philosophies, as can be witnessed in several NG's. As the proper practice with K. by itself will lead the the goal, from this perspective non-dualism is but one way to explain one's state. So IMO discussion in a K. oriented forum is preferable."

Jerry wrote: Jan, not everyone approaches The Self from the viewpoint of Kundalini.There are people who are involved in astrology, for example, who intuit the Self and would like to approach it. I understand that one really can't avoid Kundalini since it is Life Force, but not everyone is interested in the symptoms of Kundalini simply because they do not experience them. In other words, Kundalini does not have to be grasped as subject matter in order to approach The Self or I Am. If anyone is interested in this new list, email Lobster. I am happy to take any questions or comments privately.


Subject: Re: The Force of Self-Realization

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:21:27 -0700

From: Jerry <>

To: Gloria Lee <>


Gloria Lee wrote:

"Seems we have been over this ground why the K-phenom list was attempted (and didn't happen to work out?).. people ARE at many different levels and find it helpful to be reassured that others also experience similar "wierd stuff" tho most experts advise ignoring such. IS THIS "REALIZATION" THE REAL PURPOSE OF K?? If so, then such discussions of "SELF" are K-related and belong here. If its unwelcome here, then ok..let's take it lsewhere.

My humble opinion is that inclusiveness and variety IS a truly spiritual environment. So, it saddens me to see anyone leave or be made to feel  unwelcome. From beginner to expert..we are one, aren't we? ..even stuff posted here that is over my head sorta gives me hope, if nothing else. I like to "hang out" here..with ALL of you. <SNIP> > Jerry wrote such a good question. may we see a response HERE?"

Jerry wrote, Glo: A new list would not be a Kundalini/Inner Self list. It is not the case that list members will be approaching The Self from the disposition of Kundalini. Some will. The ones that join the new list from the k-list, clearly will. But the members of the new list -- the I AM List, if one cares to call it that, as someone suggested to me privately -- these members will be from all sorts of backgrounds, including Kundalini, Astrology, Crystals, Angels, one form of Buddhism or another, Jane Roberts, Shamanism, Egyptology, Mental Science... you name it.

Therefore, the new list is not a form of specialization. It is a great broadening. What will be common, however, among all members is their desire to turn within to the source of what occupies their attention. That is what spiritual life is all about.

Nonduality: The Varieties of Expression